I have read a lot about Rogues sucking in Pathfinder but I still want to play one. I am about to get to play PF tonight for the 1st time as opposed to DMing it and I get to start at level 4. Books allowed will be core+Ultimate Combat+ the Advanced Players Guide. I do not need the most min maxed character ever but I am thinking of something like Rogue 3/Barbarian 1 and the Barbarian level can be Ranger or Fighter as well.
The basic idea is to ignore weapon finesse and start with an 18 strength and 14-16 dex (we roll for scores). After that dexterity will be the focus for all the level up stuff.
I remember the dex based Rogue in 3.5 being a bit of a trap option and as a DM I thought the high str based one was the better idea. 1d6+ str bonus for damage vs 2d6+6 with 18 strength almost doubles or triples your average damage. The feat saved off weapon finesse can be used for power attack and you can take cleave later I suppose.
Thoughts or am I still stuck in 2006 or so;).
Get yourself a two-handed weapon with an expanded crit range. Hope that your PFS party has other melee warriors that you can flank with. Be nice to whomever is going to heal you (hopefully) before you get creamed, cause your AC will be behind.
If you are not going for optimization a grappling rouge could be goofy, but i'm sure that you would drop off fast. Personally i would go with the level in fighter for the extra feat
DP my bad.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've heard Cleave really isn't worth much in PF compared to what it once was. Strength-based Rogues are nice, though.
A pretty decent guide to rogues popped up here not long ago. For what you've got in mind, it recommended a Thug build. If you're Human, start with the Bludgeoner and Enforcer feats and two-hand a Morningstar. If you do take a level of Fighter or Barbarian later, you can then upgrade to a heavy flail. With 18 Strength, decent Charisma, and the Thug's 1st-level ability, you barely even need AC because enemies will spend more time running from you than hitting you.
I'm not sure where those feats are from. I just used the PFRPG book as the DM is kind of new and I'm not trying to wreck his game. A few of us are also 1st ed characters and we rolled higher stats than point buy.
Human
Barb 1
Rogue 3
Feats
Skill Focus: UMD
Power Attack
Cleave
Improved Initiative
Kinda sticking to the core book only with a basic build. Doesn't have to be the most uber maxed out build and I have 2 18s as ability scores (str and dex) after racial and level up mods.
I'll recommend half-orc, since it'll let you start out as a rogue with a great-axe or falchion, and gives you the orcish double-axe if you splash barbarian, ranger or fighter. Also, you can see in the dark, and a lot of your enemies may briefly regret that they don't.
The splash for getting full martial proficiency is fantastic, since it means you can use damn near anything the party finds.
I played a 16 Str, 16 Dex half-orc rogue for Serpent's Skull who raised dex afterwards. Having the Str mod helped immensely at low levels. He splashed fighter at level 3 or 4; don't remember which.
He eventually shifted to ranged combat - specifically, throwing weapons, where the Str mod continued to help him with just a little extra damage, which adds up (especially with sniper goggles and a caster granting him concealment). And if something closed into melee with him, then he just whipped out the old double-axe and started carving.
It's absolutely possible to be effective with a rogue, but it'll take some thought and some planning. Rogues don't get handed any "I win" buttons like other classes are, and are dependent on teamwork to function. But a rogue that's good is good.
The idea for this character came from 3.5 which I DMed. I noticed the PCs were very scared of Rogue/Barbarians and I built some NPC Rogues with high strength and most of my players got addicted to high dex and weapon finesse and used strength as a dump stat.
I'm going to boost dex over strength I just wanted the 18 strength to start with. To some extent I am still in 2006 BTW as I have been DMing PF since 2009 but I am very careful what I allow PCs to actually use and mostly limit it to PFRPG book and maybe Ultimate Combat/Magic and the Advanced Players Guide.
After 3.5 I say no to a lot of PC requests for feats from splat books.
I would recommend half-orc and the Slulking Slayer/Scout combo. Get guaranteed sneak attack on a charge (with d8 sneak attack instead of d6). Eventually get sneak attack whenever you move (more than 10ft). Works well with vital strike feats. If you want to add barbarian, the Beastial Leaper rage power lets you move, standard action attack, finish move. Not as powerful as a barbarian full attacking but you get a strong one-hit build with battlefield mobility.
I do not like Ninja's, Samurai etc and we have a halfling ninja already.
Skulking Slayer/Scout are in what books? I assume they are an archtype?
Skulking slayer is advanced race guide. Scout is either advanced players guide or ultimate combat. Can't remember off the top of my head.
Edit: Sorry, just realized you not using ARG. It still works with just Scout, only thing you lose is the d8 sneak attack on a charge.
Half-Orc Skulking Slayer Scout. Strength based rogue is usually much more effective in practice than the theoretical two weapon fighting dex based variant. Focus on strength and con. Consider a single level dip into fighter (actually better to start as a fighter for hp) for bonus feats and heavy armor proficiency.
|
I'd actually rate a Ninja/Scout or Thug/Scout over a Skulking Slayer Scout myself. The Skulking Slayer is a fun archetype, but from my experience, you lose 2 skill points [becoming on-par with all of the pseudo-rogues in skills, and realistically, behind], and all of the trap stuff, to gain a better damage die size on sneak attack and bonus to 2 different combat maneuvers you won't perform much unless you build for it. The extra 1 point/die isn't worth losing all that you could have instead by being a Thug/Scout and being able to make enemies run away in combat, or a Ninja/Scout and being able to vanish, both at roughly the same cost.
I do not have most of those books it seems and I do not want to snowball the GM to much with stuff from the PRD. I'll see if I can find the Scout and have a look at that.
Thanks for the ideas so far though.
|
|
I'm not sure where those feats are from. I just used the PFRPG book as the DM is kind of new and I'm not trying to wreck his game. A few of us are also 1st ed characters and we rolled higher stats than point buy.
Human
Barb 1
Rogue 3Feats
Skill Focus: UMD
Power Attack
Cleave
Improved InitiativeKinda sticking to the core book only with a basic build. Doesn't have to be the most uber maxed out build and I have 2 18s as ability scores (str and dex) after racial and level up mods.
You mentioned in the first post that you had the APG and Ultimate Combat. Enforcer is in the APG, and Bludgeoner is in Ultimate Combat. But if you want to go core-only, that's cool too. Improved Initiative is quite nice for rogues.
You took Skill Focus: UMD-- do you have any plans for what to use it for? I'd recommend a wand of Blur, since you can use the concealment for sneak attacks (at least I think you can; the rules aren't entirely clear. Ask your DM if he thinks it would work before you go for it.)
If you're thinking of improving dex for defensive purposes while leaving your attack stat stale, you could instead get Crane Style through Unarmed Fighter. Instead of trading off some ab and damage for some ac, you just trade off some ab for double the ac. Whether Unarmed Fighter gets you martial weapons is apparently open to debate though...
A good dip, though not limited to the core rule book, is 2 levels of cavalier. The order of the cockatrice offers not only the ability to use dazzling display as a standard action, but also provides a +2 bonus to hit demoralized targets, which greatly helps with the reduced BAB. Furthermore, you get dazzling display as a bonus feat and, via the gendarme archetype can get power attack as a bonus feat by trading in your mount. All in all, this gets you everything two levels of fighter get you, plus more.
This also combines well with the thug archetype for intimidating goodness.
I'm not sure where those feats are from. I just used the PFRPG book as the DM is kind of new and I'm not trying to wreck his game. A few of us are also 1st ed characters and we rolled higher stats than point buy.
Human
Barb 1
Rogue 3Feats
Skill Focus: UMD
Power Attack
Cleave
Improved InitiativeKinda sticking to the core book only with a basic build. Doesn't have to be the most uber maxed out build and I have 2 18s as ability scores (str and dex) after racial and level up mods.
You mentioned in the first post that you had the APG and Ultimate Combat. Enforcer is in the APG, and Bludgeoner is in Ultimate Combat. But if you want to go core-only, that's cool too. Improved Initiative is quite nice for rogues.
You took Skill Focus: UMD-- do you have any plans for what to use it for? I'd recommend a wand of Blur, since you can use the concealment for sneak attacks (at least I think you can; the rules aren't entirely clear. Ask your DM if he thinks it would work before you go for it.)
It is also what I know. Imp Initiative, PA and Cleave have been soldiering on for us since the early days of 3.0. I took UMD due to lacking a cleric in the party (wand of CLW) and I have a wand of true strike and shocking grasp with 10 charges each.
I am running this kind of rogue in kingmaker. Half orc with a falchion. Took combat expertise and improved feign, weapon focus and dazzling display (using rogue talents to get some of them) He has been a very effective glass cannon. Deals horrible damage and/or falls over. Orc ferocity has saved him on at least one occasion. I did not spot the scout until afterwards or I probably would have taken that.
The character has been fun to play, which is always more important then what other people think of as sub optimal.
I do not mind sub optimal as long as I do not fall into le suck territory. Hence no craft underwater basketweaving.
A "how to" on strength based rogues
step 1: train as a fighter(with like 1 level in rogue)
step 2: say you are a rogue
step 3: get ranks in stealth and disable device to prove it to all those non believers
step 4: only wear light/med armor and use high dex for AC
step 5: use all the bonus feats to fight as rogueishly as you wanted.
|
|
You might want to consider using a Naginata or Glaive[with the Barbarian dip granting proficiency] and Combat Reflexes for this. Most rogues don't because there aren't any finesse-able reach weapons other then the feat-heavy whip, but for a Str-rogue, you gain a weapon that makes flanking much more viable, and gives you more opportunities for Attacks of Opportunity.