Invisibility - Flatfooted / Sneak Attack


Rules Questions


When you come out of invisibility to sneak attack, is the enemy only flatfooted for your first attack, or are they flat footed for the entire full attack action if you have multiple attacks?


1) If you are invisible (as per, say, the Invisibility spell), your enemies are not Flat-Footed, they are just denied their Dexterity Bonus to AC (which happens to also happen when a creature is Flatfooted). Fortunately, a rogue still gets to apply Sneak Attack dice when attacking an enemy that is just denied their Dexterity Bonus to AC, regardless as to whether the target has the Flat-Footed condition.

2) If you are under the effects of an Invisibility spell, and attack, you become visible when your first attack is made. This means that a rogue with multiple attacks (such as from Two-Weapon Fighting or a high Base Attack Bonus) will only be able to apply SA to the first attack he makes. If he were under the effects of a Greater Invisibility spell, however, he'd be able to apply SA to all his attacks (since Greater Invisibility does not break on attacking).


Honorable Goblin wrote:

1) If you are invisible (as per, say, the Invisibility spell), your enemies are not Flat-Footed, they are just denied their Dexterity Bonus to AC (which happens to also happen when a creature is Flatfooted). Fortunately, a rogue still gets to apply Sneak Attack dice when attacking an enemy that is just denied their Dexterity Bonus to AC, regardless as to whether the target has the Flat-Footed condition.

2) If you are under the effects of an Invisibility spell, and attack, you become visible when your first attack is made. This means that a rogue with multiple attacks (such as from Two-Weapon Fighting or a high Base Attack Bonus) will only be able to apply SA to the first attack he makes. If he were under the effects of a Greater Invisibility spell, however, he'd be able to apply SA to all his attacks (since Greater Invisibility does not break on attacking).

I couldn't quite find the rules for this, can you point me to the correct book/quote?

Sczarni

(the blue-colored words are links to the relevant rules)


Flat-footed is a condition, just like being stunned or dazed is. It just so happens the being flat-footed denies you dex to AC. Being denied your dex bonus is what sets you up for the sneak attack.

You only get sneak attack as long as the enemy is not aware of you. After the first attack they are aware of you, because you are now visible.

SKR-rules developer at the time the quote was made wrote:


We are talking about whether you get more than one sneak attack because of the invis. The answer is "no."


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The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.

Note that it just says "denied a Dexterity bonus to AC"; that means any time the target's denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (target's Flat-Footed, target's Pinned, the attacker is Invisible, etc).

A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

So Flat-Footed is a condition that (among other things) denies a creature its Dexterity Bonus to AC (and thus allows a rogue to apply SA).

Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus.. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

Pinned is another condition that (among other things) denies a creature its Dexterity Bonus to AC (and thus allows a rogue to apply SA).

Invisible: Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). See Invisibility, under Special Abilities.

Invisible is a condition that (among other things) allows a creature to ignore its target's Dexterity Bonus to AC, which is functionally identical to denying the target said bonus (and thus allows a rogue to apply SA).

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If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

This text clearly indicates that, when you make multiple attacks in one round, they don't happen simultaneously but rather one after another.

The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature.

Since the spell ends as soon as you (use your first) attack, its effects can no longer be applied to any other attacks you may make later in the round.

EDIT: See Nefreet's post above.


Oh, thanks.

Sczarni

in theory you could have invisibility as a contingency spell when you attack, thus allowing you to:

invisibly attack once, get sneak attack, invisibility goes down, contingency goes off, invisible again, get second attack with invisibility, and get second sneak attack... and you are then visible until another casting or you move or something to get concealment and roll a stealth roll.

In theory... it might just be cheaper and easier to get greater invisibility.

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