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The question:
What is your casting class when you use Preferred spell if you are a multiclassed spellcaster?
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I have found very little discussion on preferred spell, and almost nothing about the caster level if you are a multiclassed spellcaster.
Preferred Spell
You find it very easy to cast one particular spell.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 5 ranks, Heighten Spell.
Benefit: Choose one spell which you have the ability to cast. You can cast that spell spontaneously by sacrificing a prepared spell or spell slot of equal or higher level. You can apply any metamagic feats you possess to this spell when you cast it. This increases the minimum level of the prepared spell or spell slot you must sacrifice in order to cast it but does not affect the casting time.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different spell.
Let's start with a 1th level cleric, 6th level wizard that has taken Preferred spell cure light wounds (don't ask why, it is an example).
He burn a 1st level wizard spell to fuel Preferred spell and cast CLW.
By the text of the feat it is possible and allowed.
I would say that he would cast the spell as a Cleric, CL 1, as that is the class that can cast CLW.
But there is the basis to argue that he will cast it as a wizard at CL 6.
Now let's consider a 9th level magus/1st level wizard (he want a broader base for his 1st level spells and want to use all wizard scroll without using UMD).
He has taken Preferred spell shocking grasp.
He can burn a 1st level wizard spell to cast shocking grasp? Yes.
What is his caster level, and what spell list he is using? .....
As he want to use his caster level as a magus, he has never transcribed shocking grasp in his wizard spellbook, so he can't cast it as a wizard.
That change the answer to the previous question?
Someone has a clear answer?
The feat don't give any information about what casting class you should use with your preferred spell, so AFAIK, there is no limitation about using spells of one class to fuel spells of another class.
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TGMaxMaxer that statement is part of a FAQ, but it exist only for the class based abilities, not for feats.
Fighter: What feats can I retrain at level 4, 8, and so on?
Class entries in the Core Rulebook are written assuming that your character is single-classed (not multiclassed). The fighter's ability to retrain feats allows you to retrain one of your fighter bonus feats (gained at 1st level, 2nd level, 4th level, and so on). You can't use it to retrain feats (combat feats or otherwise) from any other source, such as your feats at level 1, 3, etc., your 1st-level human bonus feat, or bonus feats from other classes.
You may want to asterisk your fighter bonus feats on your character sheet so you can easily determine which you can retrain later.
Feat are written for any character, so they should be single or multiclassed character neutral (unless being a member of a specific class is a requisite for the feat and affect how the feat work).
As for the magus, they have stated for the purposes of the magus class features (spellstrike/spellcombat, etc.) that they only work using spells on the magus list prepared in magus spellslots.So, you could burn wizard slots for extra shocking grasps, but those would be at CL 1 doing 1d6 not 5d6 using magus levels.
Taking that logic to the extreme, a single class magus with Preferred spell shocking grasp will not be able to use spell combat or spellstrike wile using the feat.
The magus spell slot is only the fuel, it is not casting a spell that he has memorized in one of his magus spell slots.
Check your inbox Mr.Rossi :)
The easiest, simplest and cleanest answer is to use the class that has the spell on it's list.
In example#1 the CL is Cleric-1, as the spell only appears on the cleric list.
In example#2 the CL is going to be Magus-9 if it's a spell known to the Magus. If it is a spell that the Magus has not learned it should not be a Preferred Spell to start with in this example.
The caveat of Spellstrike/Spellcombat being exclusive to Magus spells only serves to make this example murky.
The presence in the (wizard class) spell book should not matter.
I realize that their is an ulterior motive to this question. I'm aware of that discussion and it's ramifications. This is a corner case and that is a corner case. This is a feat and that is a class feature. This one does not offer the power wrenching ability of the other.
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The easiest, simplest and cleanest answer is to use the class that has the spell on it's list.
In example#1 the CL is Cleric-1, as the spell only appears on the cleric list.
In example#2 the CL is going to be Magus-9 if it's a spell known to the Magus. If it is a spell that the Magus has not learned it should not be a Preferred Spell to start with in this example.
The caveat of Spellstrike/Spellcombat being exclusive to Magus spells only serves to make this example murky.The presence in the (wizard class) spell book should not matter.
I realize that their is an ulterior motive to this question. I'm aware of that discussion and it's ramifications. This is a corner case and that is a corner case. This is a feat and that is a class feature. This one does not offer the power wrenching ability of the other.
While this discussion is a spin-off of the other discussion (I checked Preferred spell for insight in the other discussion, instead found what I think is a big question, and strangely only 1 very short thread about it), the situation is very different.
Class ability VS. feat.
Class abilities are, well, class related
Feats are class neutral (barring some specific feat)
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About your reply n. 2:
The problem is what class matter, the class that fuel the spell or the class that cast it?
Both ways you can have weird results.
Take a cleric 1/Magus 19 with preferred spell Divine Favor.
If he burn a 1st level magus spells he and he cast the spell at his magus level he get a large boost. If he cast as a cleric 1 he get way less.
But if he has Preferred spell Shocking grasp and use a clerical spell to fuel it the effect is reversed, small benefit if he cast as the fuelling class, a large benefit if he cast as the casting class [Magus].
Personally I think the only way too avoid headaches is to limit the swap to same casting class spells, so that a magus 19/wizard 1 character with preferred spell Shocking grasp would cast as a 19th level caster if he used a magus spell to cast shocking grasp and as a 1st level caster if he used a wizard spell to cast it, but that is a large change of the feat text.
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To make a RL analogy, I have a 1.5 Volt battery, if I use it to power up a item that require a 12 V battery at most I get a very reduced effect. Most of the time I don't get anything.
Doing the opposite generally will ruin the item.
Pathfinder is not RL and feats are class neutral, so the analogy has a limited value. Personally I think that the feat need clarification.
I have a preference but almost any decision would be acceptable. It is the indeterminateness present in this feat that I don't like.
While this discussion is a spin-off of the other discussion (I checked Preferred spell for insight in the other discussion, instead found what I think is a big question, and strangely only 1 very short thread about it), the situation is very different.
I hit FAQ, because I completely agree with you here. Based on how this is written, I think its pretty clear you can preferred spell a Shocking Grasp from a Cleric slot, and that you can even maximize it in a fourth level cleric slot...
But I have no idea at that point if you're still CL Magus, or if you use your Cleric CL.
There are compelling cases for both ways.
On the balance standpoint of things, I don't know that its truly game-breaking if you give the player the benefit of the greater CL (as there are other ways to crossover spells with feats and races, etc.) and you're inherently limited to low level spells here... but that really doesn't help in resolving this.
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I don't think you have. When the other thread came up, I kinda thought about Preferred Spell as well, it being a feat cuts into it's relevance though. But this actually came up in a game awhile back.
We went with the relevant class getting the CL.
That interpretation actually softens the issue in the other thread since a CL of 1 and limited spell access (a CLW only in that case) would actually be a non issue.
It's not a bad choice for a FAQ but the stuff getting FAQ requests lately has become silly.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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He burn a 1st level wizard spell to fuel Preferred spell and cast CLW.
By the text of the feat it is possible and allowed.
By the text of the feat it is not possible and not allowed.
Nothing in the feat says "this does allow you to use slots on one class to cast spells from another" so it is the "it doesn't say I can't" vs "it doesn't say I can" problem.
He burn a 1st level wizard spell to fuel Preferred spell and cast CLW.
By the text of the feat it is possible and allowed.
By the text of the feat it is not possible and not allowed.
Nothing in the feat says "this does allow you to use slots on one class to cast spells from another" so it is the "it doesn't say I can't" vs "it doesn't say I can" problem.
Except there's a FAQ that strongly suggest that if it doesn't say you can't, you can.
General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class.)
Of course, Preferred Spell is a feat, not a class ability, but that's an awfully fine hair to try to split.
He burn a 1st level wizard spell to fuel Preferred spell and cast CLW.
By the text of the feat it is possible and allowed.
By the text of the feat it is not possible and not allowed.
Nothing in the feat says "this does allow you to use slots on one class to cast spells from another" so it is the "it doesn't say I can't" vs "it doesn't say I can" problem.
I agree in principal James.
Until someone showed me the clarification on Sorceror Bloodlines. It's not an issue in my games and I'm still a PS virgin so this whole thing has zero impact on my group.
Bloodlines appear to be worth dropping a caster level. They are that good. The spontaneous heal isn't but could be under some circumstances. The Preferred Spell feat is so specific as to not matter.
Diego likes the Theoretical puzzle of these weird interactions. I just say yes or no, and seldom have it bite me in the rear. I do follow the Rules discussions primarily to curb someone new sitting in with my group and having some crazy interaction and derailing an actual game with rules lawyering discussions, which I hate during playtime.
The Bloodline thing made me reevaluate some of my preconceived notions on class feature interactions. I'm in the camp that multiclassing full casters is generally just cheese and seldom a story driven decision but, gaming mechanical advantage is a common playstyle and pretty much what 3.5 considered standard. PF couldn't remove that underlying reality while retaining backwards compatibility.
On topic.
This is a feat. Feats are character specific not class specific. So it doesn't matter if it's a (single class) fighter with Metamagic or or a (single class) wizzy with TWF. The feat is still theirs.
A Metamagic feat is a blanket ability. So is Brew Potion.
Now the example above is incredibly unlikely for a spell choice. No one is likely to choose a Preferred Spell from a dip class. It's not impossible though. To curb the potential cheese though the CL should be class specific. The "fuel" doesn't matter. The ability to cast that spell does. If there is overlap in the spell lists (ex Prot from Evil), it's not unreasonable to require the spell be "known" to the class that gets the big CL.
No where in the rules is this specifically covered. (That I can find.). Likely because it's a default assumption that characters are single classed. That's not how people play though and they never really have. Jason designed the CORE classes in a way where multiclassing was a "power down", that's reversing with all the archetypes and new base classes.
It's an extension of the mess that magic becomes beyond the basic elements of the CORE rulebook.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Until someone showed me the clarification on Sorceror Bloodlines.
Bringing in the Sorcerer Bloodline FAQ to discussions like this gets the threads locked.
There are a large divide between these two sides and there isn't anything to be said to convince the two sides to merge:
- It works on everything you can imagine under the sun
- It only works on things that don't reference the class like "The Cleric" or "A Bard" or similar.
Generally speaking Paizo locks threads that run their course.
I don't mind The divide and I think it's purely a forum division. I've yet to see this really impact games. But I understand this stuff is more for PS people that fear the alternating DM.
Right now the Sorceror works with everything under the sun
Nothing else does. But I'm a home DM with no power. So my opinion is limited in reach.
8)
The question:
What is your casting class when you use Preferred spell if you are a multiclassed spellcaster?
I would assume that the CL of the spell being cast would be based off where the spell slot came from
If it is a wizard6/Cleric1 with preferred spell CLW, and he burned a wizard spell, it would be CL6 because he is using a wizard spell slot.
If it is a Wizard5/Cleric3/Theurge4 with preferred spell Fireball, and burns a cleric level 4 spell to cast a Lingering Fireball (level 4 spell)it would be cast as CL 7(4 from theurge +3 from Cleric) because he is using a cleric spell slot.
The above examples are just my assumption, as this is a corner case that I have never seen spelled out exactly in the rules.
edit: I will also add I am curious about how this would be ruled. I currently have a Wizard2/Cleric1/Theurge1 with the trait Magical Knack(cleric) in PFS. My CL is 3 for Wizard, and 4 for Cleric and there is a real possibility I would pick up preferred spell
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If they do FAQ this, they should also make sure the FAQ covers the similar, but slightly different "Greater Spell Specialization" feat, which has the same language problem.
Personally, I treat both feats as applying only to one class, even if you are multi-classed. NOT saying it's "the Rule", just how I do things. At best, it's what I think the rule should be.
So, I would not allow a Cleric 1 / Wizard 7 with Preferred Spell (Cure Light Wounds) to use Wizard Slots to cast Cure Light Wounds.
If they do FAQ this, they should also make sure the FAQ covers the similar, but slightly different "Greater Spell Specialization" feat, which has the same language problem.
Personally, I treat both feats as applying only to one class, even if you are multi-classed. NOT saying it's "the Rule", just how I do things. At best, it's what I think the rule should be.
So, I would not allow a Cleric 1 / Wizard 7 with Preferred Spell (Cure Light Wounds) to use Wizard Slots to cast Cure Light Wounds.
I don't think this works by RAW or RAI so it is likely a non-factor.
Now as for the base question of which caster level to use if both classes unquestionably have access to the same spell then you do it like you would any multiclassed caster.
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If they do FAQ this, they should also make sure the FAQ covers the similar, but slightly different "Greater Spell Specialization" feat, which has the same language problem.
Personally, I treat both feats as applying only to one class, even if you are multi-classed. NOT saying it's "the Rule", just how I do things. At best, it's what I think the rule should be.
So, I would not allow a Cleric 1 / Wizard 7 with Preferred Spell (Cure Light Wounds) to use Wizard Slots to cast Cure Light Wounds.
I don't think this works by RAW or RAI so it is likely a non-factor.
Now as for the base question of which caster level to use if both classes unquestionably have access to the same spell then you do it like you would any multiclassed caster.
You've confused me. What doesn't work? I didn't say anything about anything working.
The OP question assumes you can use a different class' spell slot to cast a preferred spell even if it's not on the other class' spell list. Are you saying that doesn't work? If so, you are agreeing with me (except that I don't say it's the rule, just the way I do it).
If they do FAQ this, they should also make sure the FAQ covers the similar, but slightly different "Greater Spell Specialization" feat, which has the same language problem.
Personally, I treat both feats as applying only to one class, even if you are multi-classed. NOT saying it's "the Rule", just how I do things. At best, it's what I think the rule should be.
So, I would not allow a Cleric 1 / Wizard 7 with Preferred Spell (Cure Light Wounds) to use Wizard Slots to cast Cure Light Wounds.
I don't think this works by RAW or RAI so it is likely a non-factor.
Now as for the base question of which caster level to use if both classes unquestionably have access to the same spell then you do it like you would any multiclassed caster.
You've confused me. What doesn't work? I didn't say anything about anything working.
The OP question assumes you can use a different class' spell slot to cast a preferred spell even if it's not on the other class' spell list. Are you saying that doesn't work? If so, you are agreeing with me (except that I don't say it's the rule, just the way I do it).
I was just using your post. It was not intended to be taken as me being against you..
Yeah I know I should have said that up front.