Forced to share space and no room to leave?

[Barachiel Shina]

Was told by James to put this here:

So the spell "Create Pit" is a 10 x 10 open hole. Meaning it has enough space for 4 Small and Medium size creatures, or 1 Large creature.

So what happens when, say, two ogres fall in? Allies can move through each other's spaces, sure, but you cannot legally take combat actions in the same space now, can they?

To kick it up a notch, I've had a player drop 3 Medium foes down a pit. One other player, a Magus, decided to be daring and jumped down into the pit with them, taking up the last space and fighting them inside the pit. Problem is, if another character were to jump or fall in, then what happens?

We came upon another issue, this one quite comical. We had 4 enemies in a pit, taking up all 4 squares. The same player (the Magus), drank an "Enlarge Person" potion and...jumped in. Which means he landed on top of all 4 of the enemies.

We did not know what to do at this point. First, we had it where he took falling damage of course. Next, we figured the enemies would take damage as if an object fell on them. Considering his weight was now 1500+ lbs, that was some hefty damage. Now we had the problem of him being in the same 4 squares as the 4 Medium creatures. Legally, none of them can take any actions which is...well...completely unrealistic.

Are there any rules for situations like this?

Another prime example would be a 5-foot hallway and a character tried to use Acrobatics to tumble through 3 enemies...if he fails on the 3rd enemy's DC for Acrobatics to tumble then does he get "repelled" all the way back to his original square before he tumbled?

[insaneogeddon]

All take squeezing penalties. Then its overbear/grapple rules in a dog pile is how I would go.

[blackbloodtroll]

Overbear rules?

Who is the Overbear, and where are the rules for it?

[Captain Zoom]

Barachiel Shina wrote:

We came upon another issue, this one quite comical. We had 4 enemies in a pit, taking up all 4 squares. The same player (the Magus), drank an "Enlarge Person" potion and...jumped in. Which means he landed on top of all 4 of the enemies.

We did not know what to do at this point. First, we had it where he took falling damage of course. Next, we figured the enemies would take damage as if an object fell on them. Considering his weight was now 1500+ lbs, that was some hefty damage. Now we had the problem of him being in the same 4 squares as the 4 Medium creatures. Legally, none of them can take any actions which is...well...completely unrealistic.

You forget the step where the guys in the pit all get opportunity attacks against the Magus for him trying to enter their squares. He better hope they weren't waiting with braced weapons... ouch!

Honestly, this is simply why we have GMs. The rules can't cover every situation in detail. The GM will just have to use his own judgement.

[Nefreet]

Normally the squeezing rules (-4 attack and AC) don't apply to two medium creatures taking up the same space. You simply can't do it under normal circumstances. The squeezing rules are for trying to fit into squares that are too small to accommodate your character. I get players trying to claim they can fit into others' squares all the time when fighting down a hallway.

In your first example, the two Ogres can legally be squeezing in the pit, each taking up a 1x2 space, as though they were walking down a hallway.

If you tossed anything extra down there, I as a GM could rule in one of two possible ways:

1) everyone continues to be squeezed (but I would strongly try to avoid this, because when do you draw the line?)

or

2) the next person to fall in simply lands "on top" of the Ogres, occupying the "cube" above them, and "lands" prone (so, still taking a -4 penalty to attacks and AC). I may be lenient to Acrobatic characters and allow them a chance to balance on top of one of the Ogres (but why would an Acrobatic character have fallen in to begin with?).

Since there are no rules for this, your GM will just have to make a call and move on. It's hopefully a corner case and won't happen too often, but if you're a caster that likes to make pits, you may have to come up with something for the long term.

[insaneogeddon]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Overbear rules?

Who is the Overbear, and where are the rules for it?

Their under the entry for drop bears.

Their highly advanced drop bears whose emotional pressure and physical force makes them CR 30.

[Samasboy1]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Overbear rules?

Who is the Overbear, and where are the rules for it?

My mother is the Overbear and she uses the overbear rules to convince me she needs more grandchildren. :P

[Krith]

Just in case there's anything on this: in the instance where the two large creatures fall in the pit and are now squeezed together, if a caster, say, drops a fireball down there, any rulings on them NOT getting a reflex save, as it seems there's no place for them to move?

[CraziFuzzy]

personally, even a single character in the bottom of a 10x10 pit shouldn't get a reflex saving throw against an effect that will overspill the space. Where is he to duck to?

If all of this was written down, it would never get published, as we'd run out of forests to chop down. An imaginative GM should be able to rule it, but it should, honestly, involve the players as well. Let them describe the effect they are envisioning, and then rule it in a way that makes sense (the GM is of course the final decider). As for PFS play, and the RAW anchor? My answer to that is just don't play PFS... :-)

[Nefreet]

Krith wrote:

Just in case there's anything on this: in the instance where the two large creatures fall in the pit and are now squeezed together, if a caster, say, drops a fireball down there, any rulings on them NOT getting a reflex save, as it seems there's no place for them to move?

There are rules for using Escape Artist to squeeze through spaces narrower than half your square. When squeezing in this way, you lose your Dexterity bonus. If three Ogres fell into a pit, I think it'd be fair to say your could apply that penalty to them in the case of a Fireball spell, but strictly speaking there are no penalties listed anywhere else that I am aware of.

[insaneogeddon]

Unconscious characters get reflex saves.

Ever since 1st ed there were MAJOR issues with not allowing this - things like disintegrate which was a hit/miss (hit = dust) combo with hold or 'grapple' etc.

Just deal with it. If you want to be truly logical instead of amateurish logical the fact is in any explosion or fire burst there are waves and areas of less/more heat and areas of none where the shock wave and heat deflect each other - read accounts of fireys caught in them, bloke next to you is toast and you are singed..or even pics of Hiroshima - entire walls untouched next to utter obliteration.

If inanimate walls can make their reflex saves against nuclear explosions of substantive area your not using real science just pop science to claim otherwise.

Chances are in closed quarters the waves interact in weird areas and create moving areas of null heat or something you can matrix your way through .. or luck out and just be in!

[insaneogeddon]

Samasboy1 wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Overbear rules?

Who is the Overbear, and where are the rules for it?

My mother is the Overbear and she uses the overbear rules to convince me she needs more grandchildren. :P

The worst is the overbears 'chatting over the back fence' ability to instantly find out anything or transmit intimidate, diplomacy and bluff checks country wide in 2d10 hrs and automatically make any gather information and knowledge checks at the same time.

[seebs]

Krith wrote:

Just in case there's anything on this: in the instance where the two large creatures fall in the pit and are now squeezed together, if a caster, say, drops a fireball down there, any rulings on them NOT getting a reflex save, as it seems there's no place for them to move?

There are a lot of house rules like this.

Rules-as-written and also rules-as-intended, you get a reflex save when unconscious, even, because you ALWAYS get your saves. There may be penalties, but you never, ever, deny people a listed save unless you want to be that guy no one plays with because the game isn't fun.