|
I was playing a pfs game last night and we reached the final encounter of the session, from the information we had gathered in the town we knew that one of the npcs in the encounter was a divine spellcaster (cleric from the sounds of it) and a description of what this character looked like, having previously encountered divine casters before my character had a plan.
In the first round of combat I attempt to cast grease on the clerics holy symbol so that a reflex save is needed in order to channel or cast spells. The GM then flips through papers for a moment and then tells me that a holy symbol is not listed amongst the characters inventory. I ask how she plans to cast spells and channel and I am told that her holy symbol is likely embroidered on her outfit (though there is nothing to suggest this). I decide to cast another spell at another target and move on. The enemy cleric comes up in combat and the first thing she does is channel negative energy. I naturally ask where her holy symbol is because I had intended to make this a thing she couldn't do, now I am told that it is worn on her necklace. I naturally then ask why I was unable to grease it before, now I'm told that it wouldn't have mattered because to "present" her holy symbol she would just need to stick out her chest (like I stripper or something I guess).
We are level 1. I find that greasing a holy symbol to make it difficult for a divine caster to cast it's spells isn't over powered and as one of two level one spells I get for the day, it should be allowed to function properly.
My question is, can one grease a holy symbol and then require the spell caster to make a reflex save to cast spells with a divine focus or channel energy? How exactly is a holy symbol "presented"?
How exactly would grease matter if her holy symbol is a necklace?
It wouldnt jump out of her neck.
Grease works on wielded items, like weapons, potions, arrows, etc.
The GM didnt want to allow you to trivilize his NPC (and final battle) and he has all the rights to disallow your strategy.
Also, there are holy symbols that are engraved on shields or weapons, sometimes as bracers, sometimes the symbol can be a headgear, some religions allow tattoos as holy symbols. It all depends on the deity and how smart the cleric is.
If he knows his holy symbol can easily be taken away from him, he will take measures to prevent that.
EDIT
By "present", the targets must be able to see the symbol, it cant be hidden inside his backpack or under his cloth. He must be able to show it to his enemies.
PS: Being blind doesnt matter, its divine energy passing through the item.
EDIT2
Why didnt you simply grease the ground around him? He would need to make his reflex/acrobatic checks or fall prone and interrupt his spellcasting.
|
Casting divine spells says you merely need possession of a divine focus if the spell requires it - it can be in your bag, under your tunic, in your hand, painted on your shield, tattooed on your forehead, etc, etc.
Channeling requires you to "present" the holy symbol. I couldn't find anywhere that defined "present" but as a GM I have assumed this to be having some symbol of your deity in plain enough sight that someone within range of the channeling could see it assuming normal conditions. If said symbol were painted on a shield, part of their armor or clothing, or burned/etched/tattooed on them, you couldn't "grease" it away.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Except in pfs dm are not allowed to do any of that. If the npc cleric doesn't have a holy symbol listed either the cleric doesn't have one and can't do anything needing one. Or assume he has one and it was an oversight.
A pfs dm cannot just say oh its a holy symbol ratio embroidered on a shirt or any other special item.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Except in pfs dm are not allowed to do any of that. If the npc cleric doesn't have a holy symbol listed either the cleric doesn't have one and can't do anything needing one. Or assume he has one and it was an oversight.
A pfs dm cannot just say oh its a holy symbol ratio embroidered on a shirt or any other special item.
As a 4 star GM, if I saw a cleric in a PFS adventure did not have a holy symbol as something in their inventory, I would assume they had it as part of their outfit.
In the same way that you wouldn't say the character is naked unless the description says they're fully clothed, it's not at all a stretch to say they have a holy symbol of their god etched/embroidered/burned/tattooed/painted/drawn-in-grunge somewhere on their person.
I imagined to "present" a holy symbol one would need to hold it out exorcist style, I didn't imagine that the necklace would just slip off her head somehow, simply that when she grabbed it to present it, it would slide out of her hand.
While you say that grease works on wielded items, in actuality it works on whatever you don't want someone to easily pick up/hold. Additionally, if she was prone there's no issue in casting spells from prone.
Except in pfs dm are not allowed to do any of that. If the npc cleric doesn't have a holy symbol listed either the cleric doesn't have one and can't do anything needing one. Or assume he has one and it was an oversight.
A pfs dm cannot just say oh its a holy symbol ratio embroidered on a shirt or any other special item.
As a 4 star GM, if I saw a cleric in a PFS adventure did not have a holy symbol as something in their inventory, I would assume they had it as part of their outfit.
In the same way that you wouldn't say the character is naked unless the description says they're fully clothed, it's not at all a stretch to say they have a holy symbol of their god etched/embroidered/burned/tattooed/painted/drawn-in-grunge somewhere on their person.
That would be nice to know if it's embroidered so that we could sunder the clothing or use Prestidigitation to make it a different holy symbol or, if that's a stretch make whatever it's on to dirty to present.
There are a lot of different ways to present a holy symbol. For example, my PFS inquisitor has a Holy Symbol Tattoo, which makes 'presenting' his holy symbol quite easy...while making PFS scenarios set in Rahadoum quite unpleasant.
All in all, OP, I've seen your tactic used before, both by NPCs on PCs and vice-versa, including some variations on it such as using Swipe, etc. In this case, however, with no clear idea of how the NPC is utilizing their own holy symbol, it's really up to the GM.
|
|
That would be nice to know if it's embroidered so that we could sunder the clothing or use Prestidigitation to make it a different holy symbol or, if that's a stretch make whatever it's on to dirty to present.
That seems to me to be way beyond the scope of what prestidigitation can do, at least as far as a single standard action goes.
Prestidigitation and grease are fantastic spells for their level, no doubt, but they are not catch-all utilities that can prevent any enemy from doing things they want to do in every situation.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Except in pfs dm are not allowed to do any of that. If the npc cleric doesn't have a holy symbol listed either the cleric doesn't have one and can't do anything needing one. Or assume he has one and it was an oversight.
A pfs dm cannot just say oh its a holy symbol ratio embroidered on a shirt or any other special item.
As a 4 star GM, if I saw a cleric in a PFS adventure did not have a holy symbol as something in their inventory, I would assume they had it as part of their outfit.
In the same way that you wouldn't say the character is naked unless the description says they're fully clothed, it's not at all a stretch to say they have a holy symbol of their god etched/embroidered/burned/tattooed/painted/drawn-in-grunge somewhere on their person.
This shouldn't surprise you as a 4 star dm but putting holy symbols on clothes etc does Nothing.
Allow of the optional alternate means of holy symbols are either expensive or require feats. Its not a oh its just there thing.
So your saying if it isn't listed your giving the npc a 100+gp item? Saying it is an oversight and giving them a 1 to wooden holy symbol is reasonable.
Giving them an expensive item is not.
That would be nice to know if it's embroidered so that we could sunder the clothing or use Prestidigitation to make it a different holy symbol or, if that's a stretch make whatever it's on to dirty to present.That seems to me to be way beyond the scope of what prestidigitation can do, at least as far as a single standard action goes.
Prestidigitation and grease are fantastic spells for their level, no doubt, but they are not catch-all utilities that can prevent any enemy from doing things they want to do in every situation.
I just want to be level one and be able to use the very limited resources I have. While it's really stretching prestidigitation (I admit it!) I think that by RAW it's totally possible depending on the situation.
Also, OP, it would help to know the name of the scenario, even if you want to spoiler it or whatever
So your saying if it isn't listed your giving the npc a 100+gp item? Saying it is an oversight and giving them a 1 to wooden holy symbol is reasonable.Giving them an expensive item is not.
I had that thought as well, it would seem more reasonable that they would have a cheap throw away holy symbol instead of an embroidered one out a tattoo if the character wasn't described as having one. I have not run a scenario before, but does it list that every caster has a spell component pouch? Or is that assumed?
I think it may unofficially be assumed. But its not written anywhere in the dm section of the guide. I've only run 2 pfs scenario and both had sorcerers.
Its likely one of those things you don't notice at all until a clever pc shows up and says "I have the steal maneuver does he have a component pouch?" And the dm looks and says huh? He doesn't have it listed.
I don't know if its deliberate or poor writing.
You should be able to it would be around s string on their neck. But without special gear they have to physically handle it.
As a funny note I ran #4-22 in a home game last night and did not even look if the npc cleric had a holy symbol mentioned ill double check when I get home.
Well pathfinder is a permissive game. You need rules saying you can do something. And I have several examples of "hands free" holy symbol alternatives being expensive or using feats.
You need a rule saying you can just embroider the symbols.
Holy symbol tattoo is 100 to there is a feat to consecrate a shield I think.. I forget the name.
|
|
Well pathfinder is a permissive game. You need rules saying you can do something. And I have several examples of "hands free" holy symbol alternatives being expensive or using feats.
You need a rule saying you can just embroider the symbols.
Holy symbol tattoo is 100 to there is a feat to consecrate a shield I think.. I forget the name.
Yes, thank you for getting the "air bud rule" the hell out of here.
|
|
Additionally I'm a different game when I was playing a cleric I was told I was unable to present my holy symbol with my hands bound, so some aspect of holding it out to display seems to be required.
Where is the rule that the GM in your anecdote was trying to enforce?
Well pathfinder is a permissive game. You need rules saying you can do something. And I have several examples of "hands free" holy symbol alternatives being expensive or using feats.
You need a rule saying you can just embroider the symbols.
Holy symbol tattoo is 100 to there is a feat to consecrate a shield I think.. I forget the name.
Can you please cite the rule that says this? I'm not trying to be a jerk or be rude, but I do like to have proof of things people claim are rules, if only to enforce it correctly next time I run or play.
Are you able to copy/paste some official text and/or provide a link to the PRD page that has a rule on this?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In your current case, OP, after reading the scenario again I would have given it to you.
A cleric earlier in the scenario (at tier 4-5) has a wooden holy symbol listed. I would assume, as a GM, that the 2nd NPC cleric later on would have the same, especially since their wielded weapon is listed as a single one-handed mace. Unfortunately, no holy symbol is listed in any way on that NPC, at either the 1-2 tier or the 4-5 tier.
It's a good tactic, but in this case, it's really up to the GM. I know that fight, it can be a tough one. Personally, I would have allowed your tactic to play out as it's a pretty smart use of the spell, though I'd definitely make sure (as you did) that your PC had first seen the holy symbol be presented, as in having seen the cleric cast or channel.
|
|
It's a good tactic, but in this case, it's really up to the GM. I know that fight, it can be a tough one. Personally, I would have allowed your tactic to play out as it's a pretty smart use of the spell, though I'd definitely make sure (as you did) that your PC had first seen the holy symbol be presented, as in having seen the cleric cast or channel.
Grease is awesome because it's a Swiss army spell, it's able to do a lot if you get creative with it. I think that most of the time the holy symbol is accessible enough that you can see it and know what it is before watching them cast or channel. When it comes down to GM discretion things get terrible, I would need to ask before the game if it would be allowed to work like that, and people will say no just to say it.
The tables shows all kind of prices for holy symbols.
Grease is awesome because it's a Swiss army spell, it's able to do a lot if you get creative with it. I think that most of the time the holy symbol is accessible enough that you can see it and know what it is before watching them cast or channel. When it comes down to GM discretion things get terrible, I would need to ask before the game if it would be allowed to work like that, and people will say no just to say it.
The only time i really saw grease being used creatively (as in, outside the description of the spell), was regarding sexual relations between small and large sized characters.
Is there clarification of what "presenting" means? I've seen it argued that presenting means it need only be visible on their person.
If this is the case, the grease would have done nothing as you would have greased the holy symbol and the cleric would have still been able to use their abilities without any problems.
Is there clarification of what "presenting" means? I've seen it argued that presenting means it need only be visible on their person.
If this is the case, the grease would have done nothing as you would have greased the holy symbol and the cleric would have still been able to use their abilities without any problems.
I agree with that, that's why I would like to know what "presenting" means. Does wearing my holy symbol present it? Am I presenting my pants?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That npc was sporting some nice threads
|
GM's are well within their rights to make a call such as "There are bronze filigree unholy symbols all over the cenobite's armor". If players can come up with an ingenious and/or cool way to make such holy symbols "unpresentable", all the better.
However, instant shutdown tactics targeting a holy symbol, such as the aforementioned wooden one during Shades of Ice part n, should be unadvised or just shot down since they practically bypass climatic boss battles.
For instance, I recall happily sundering various unholy symbols through seasons 2-3 and only later realising how much, and with no effort whatsoever, it lay waste to encounter design. And it took a friendly gm explaining me to get it through my thick skull: He told me, over a beer, how he had taken precautions for my fave tactic so that others could enjoy a challenge!
These days, well, I'm glad they don't list holy symbols all the time: I can only imagine how much fun some of those gm's had seeing their prep go down the drain.
|
|
GM's are well within their rights to make a call such as "There are bronze filigree unholy symbols all over the cenobite's armor". If players can come up with an ingenious and/or cool way to make such holy symbols "unpresentable", all the better.
However, instant shutdown tactics targeting a holy symbol, such as the aforementioned wooden one during Shades of Ice part n, should be unadvised or just shot down since they practically bypass climatic boss battles.
For instance, I recall happily sundering various unholy symbols through seasons 2-3 and only later realising how much, and with no effort whatsoever, it lay waste to encounter design. And it took a friendly gm explaining me to get it through my thick skull: He told me, over a beer, how he had taken precautions for my fave tactic so that others could enjoy a challenge!
These days, well, I'm glad they don't list holy symbols all the time: I can only imagine how much fun some of those gm's had seeing their prep go down the drain.
Were I running a home game I'd consider putting extremely expensive items in things players liked to sunder.
"Hey, these bad guys don't have any gold or goods!"
"Yup. You smashed them all."
should be unadvised or just shot down since they practically bypass climatic boss battles.
That reasoning is a bit futile, since there are already a jillion ways to bypass climactic boss battles.
|
|
I would be quite upset with a random expensive item showing up on an NPC, to specifically thwart my tactics, even when not listed in the Module.
In a home game, I would be irritated, but at least I get his random expensive item, should I defeat him.
In PFS, I would be pissed.
Now, if he gave him a 1gp Wooden Holy symbol, because it seemed the module forgot it, that seems reasonable.
Imagine if it was a weapon.
Forgot to give an NPC a weapon? He has a Club.
Not an Adamantine Greatsword.
If a gm metagamed in pfs, then I'd rip them apart. Changing things up to adapt for a certain player, or adding in or subtracting items is strictly forbidden, and absolutely not in the gm's right. Run the scenario correctly, or don't run it.
I am not suggesting tampering with the scenario, but another way a cleric could have a holy symbol on their person is the birthmark trait.
"You were born with a strange birthmark that looks very similar to the holy symbol of the god you chose to worship later in life.
Benefits: This birthmark can serve you as a divine focus for casting spells, and as a physical manifestation of your faith, and it increases your devotion to your god. You gain a +2 trait bonus on all saving throws against charm and compulsion effects."
I have actually ran Shades of Ice Part I twice, both at tier 1-2. Both times the cleric was the first person taken out by the players, so she didn't even get to do anything anyway.
|
|
However, instant shutdown tactics targeting a holy symbol, such as the aforementioned wooden one during Shades of Ice part n, should be unadvised or just shot down since they practically bypass climatic boss battles.
This isn't instant shut down though, they pass the first reflex save and the spell has no effect. Even if they fail it, when they attempt to present it they get another save and if they pass they can hold it up that round.
I'm at level 1 man... I could color spray and just end the battle. Instead I wanted to be awesome and do something clever that others in the group might not have thought of that would keep us alive.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, this enemy Cleric just started Faith-Hilling his Holy Symbol?
|
|
"You were born with a strange birthmark that looks very similar to the holy symbol of the god you chose to worship later in life.
Benefits: This birthmark can serve you as a divine focus for casting spells, and as a physical manifestation of your faith, and it increases your devotion to your god. You gain a +2 trait bonus on all saving throws against charm and compulsion effects."
Sweet, birthmark doesn't count as a holy symbol for channeling, so I still get to grease the holy symbol that isn't part of their body.
|
|
So, this enemy Cleric just started Faith-Hilling his Holy Symbol?
YESSS!!!! That is awesome! Thank you for that!
Kind of, it was suggested that all they need to do was stick out their chest. I believe that the illustration for cleric is them presenting their holy symbol.
Additionally I'm a different game when I was playing a cleric I was told I was unable to present my holy symbol with my hands bound, so some aspect of holding it out to display seems to be required.Where is the rule that the GM in your anecdote was trying to enforce?
Well pathfinder is a permissive game. You need rules saying you can do something. And I have several examples of "hands free" holy symbol alternatives being expensive or using feats.
You need a rule saying you can just embroider the symbols.
Holy symbol tattoo is 100 to there is a feat to consecrate a shield I think.. I forget the name.
Can you please cite the rule that says this? I'm not trying to be a jerk or be rude, but I do like to have proof of things people claim are rules, if only to enforce it correctly next time I run or play.
Are you able to copy/paste some official text and/or provide a link to the PRD page that has a rule on this?
ere how do you become a 4 star gm without understanding how the system works. If I am a player I show up at your table I say I have hoy symbols on my robes. Proof is on me to show what book it is in and that I own it.
The fact that pf is a permissive system isn't explained anywhere its.. just exactly how it works. You can do things because a rule says you can.
This means if your doing core only your only option is a normal holy symbol.
should be unadvised or just shot down since they practically bypass climatic boss battles.That reasoning is a bit futile, since there are already a jillion ways to bypass climactic boss battles.
No, I agree with Muser. This is one of the many reasons I have been disenchanted with some of the Adventure Path material. PC's have a wealth of options at their fingertips unless GM's want to cherry pick abilities for them to have access to or not have access to, and savvy players will almost always choose at least one "save or lose" option.
Grease is one such spell. It's useful against almost every target you can think of except an unarmed specialist. Clerics? Grease Holy Symbols. Melee/ranged Fighters/Paladins/Rangers/basicallyanythingthatusesaweapon? Grease weapons. Arcane Casters? Grease Spell Component Pouches. It matters very little when a carefully built NPC with masterfully designed tactics cannot use those tactics and gets murdered because they have no backup plan. Sorcerers are at a bit of an advantage due to free Eschew Materials but they are one of very few.
Grease is not the only issue with this. It's one of a number as you mentioned, but it's certainly one of the earliest "save or lose" options that a party has access to, and it's the most widely useful against a variety of targets.
Personally as a GM I tend to give NPC's multiple options for threatening a party. Wizards get Eschew Materials as a bonus feat, those reliant on weapons get at least one extra. Maybe not as good as their primary but something they can swing (perhaps a Spiked Gauntlet, or armor spikes), and Clerics get multiple holy symbols or multiple clearly represented symbols on their armor.
As a player I try to avoid the "save or lose" options, at least early on because I don't find it fun to just curb stomp an encounter, and I don't enjoy playing in parties where people take them. I like roleplay as much as the next guy but I also like having a challenging fight to go along with it from time to time.
To the OP: Your GM didn't want to see a potentially challenging and cool encounter get thrown down the tube because the NPC he was given would be unable to use an item vital to his class. It's bad on him for not describing the NPC in question as having a holy symbol embroidered on his tabard or etched on his shield/pauldrons or something, but I don't blame him for wanting a climactic encounter to pose something of a threat rather than being unable to use most of its class abilities due to a single 1st level spell with a DC that was likely well beyond a Cleric with a poor save.
|
|
Grease is one such spell. It's useful against almost every target you can think of except an unarmed specialist. Clerics? Grease Holy Symbols. Melee/ranged Fighters/Paladins/Rangers/basicallyanythingthatusesaweapon? Grease weapons. Arcane Casters? Grease Spell Component Pouches. It matters very little when a carefully built NPC with masterfully designed tactics cannot use those tactics and gets murdered because they have no backup plan. Sorcerers are at a bit of an advantage due to free Eschew Materials but they are one of very few.
Um... Save or lose? It is a spell component pouch / holy symbol. They are 5gp. Have 4 of them. Let the party spend 4 standard actions. Okay, if you are in PFS that is less of an option, but in a home game, any decent wizard who expects to see combat should have backups.
re: birthmark. I so want to play a cleric of caylen cayden (sp?) who has to pull down his pants to channel... (or at least who has that as a backup option.)
I've had clerics use them, but they have to be easily exposed, so a birthmark of your deity on your buttocks wouldn't do any good if you're wearing pants or covering up, but on your hand/face/arm would be fairly easy to show. Your chest might be harder unless you plan to run around exposing yourself or go shirtless.
Mooning the undead seems appropriate for a cleric of Pharasma... Maybe get the spiral tattooed on each buttock... @*@
To the OP: Your GM didn't want to see a potentially challenging and cool encounter get thrown down the tube because the NPC he was given would be unable to use an item vital to his class. It's bad on him for not describing the NPC in question as having a holy symbol embroidered on his tabard or etched on his shield/pauldrons or something, but I don't blame him for wanting a climactic encounter to pose something of a threat rather than being unable to use most of its class abilities due to a single 1st level spell with a DC that was likely well beyond a Cleric with a poor save.
That encounter had three other enemies, and the cleric was arguably the weakest opponent. Neutralizing the cleric with a grease spell is hardly (IMO) going to trivialize the encounter. Tactically, I'd rather let the cleric channel for 1d6 damage, and use grease to make the barbarian fall over so he doesn't get both his attacks. (Or grease one of the barbarian's weapons)
Personally, I applaud characters trying to find creative ways to use spells.