Hey everybody!
So as we all know, generally GMs decide to use either a 15 or 20 point buy for their player characters...my GM has decided to have us use 10 point buys...which I regard as a mistake, as does one other player. Either way, I am stuck on my class choice, as I cannot choose a MAD class, and the other two players have chosen their classes: we have a fighter, and an alchemist.
What I'm asking is what everyone thinks a good class for a VERY low point buy game would be. Thanks in advance!!
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Druid or Summoner? Animal Companions and Eidolons aren't affected by low point buy.
Thanks for the...*cough* every so constructive comment...can you please try to be constructive as opposed to simply poking fun at the question? Thanks
Oracle.
St 10, Dex 10, Con 12, int 10, wis 10, cha 17+2 race, and one pt for dex, con or wis.
Actually, you can build just about any full caster like that. You can dump str down to 8 for 2 pts. That gives you a 12 in another stat.
Boost the fighter, let the alchemist do the blasting. Stay out of combat.
wizard. Single stat dependent. God wizard will help your lowly martials who will need the help of a God wizard to control the battlefield. Plus summons will be more valuable since their value goes up as other peoples stats go down. Their flanking bonus will be super valuable compared to a high point buy where it wouldn't be needed. Plus less points=less points in CON, which means that hits summons take will not go against your squishier characters.
str 8
dex 12
con 12
wis 10
int 18
chr 8
Str 8, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 16 (+2 = 18) Wis 12, Cha 7 Human Wizard.
Be anything with an animal companion. It will be the most effective party member.
Dwarven druid
Put shield other on your companion, stand in the back and watch em go.
STR: 7 DEX: 8 CON: 18 INT: 10 WIS: 18 CHA: 5
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Oracle.
St 10, Dex 10, Con 12, int 10, wis 10, cha 17+2 race, and one pt for dex, con or wis.
Actually, you can build just about any full caster like that. You can dump str down to 8 for 2 pts. That gives you a 12 in another stat.
Boost the fighter, let the alchemist do the blasting. Stay out of combat.
I like this but unless your caster is needing stellar save DCs for attack or save-or-sucks, You could tone the 17 charisma down to 15-16 and give a bit of love to some other stats like dex(AC, ranged) and con(hp always good).
I like this but unless your caster is needing stellar save DCs for attack or save-or-sucks, You could tone the 17 charisma down to 15-16 and give a bit of love to some other stats like dex(AC, ranged) and con(hp always good).Oracle.
St 10, Dex 10, Con 12, int 10, wis 10, cha 17+2 race, and one pt for dex, con or wis.
Actually, you can build just about any full caster like that. You can dump str down to 8 for 2 pts. That gives you a 12 in another stat.
Boost the fighter, let the alchemist do the blasting. Stay out of combat.
Gives extra spells too, that extra 1st level spell @ 1st is very nice. Dump str to 8, get a Dex of 12. Con is already 12. Make it 13 with that extra point. Play a Gnome, but then don't dump str. adj for race stats are:
Str 8, dex 11, con 14, int 10, wis 10, cha 19.
I really hate when a GM does the 10 pt buy thing. All it does is effectively limit what classes are usable. Can't really play a Magus or a Paladin...all it does is shoe-horn people into playing single stat characters.
I agree. Op, try asking for a 15pt buy but no dumping. We have found that a 20 pt buy with no dumps works perfect.
Offer your GM some of your points so that he can buy himself some Int!
Nah, seriously, maybe you should ask him what he's trying to achieve with 10 point buy.
Are your characters generally too strong for his taste or does he enjoy tormenting a bunch of squishies?
There are probably better ways of raising difficulty than to make the PCs indistinguishable to commoners.
I really hate when a GM does the 10 pt buy thing. All it does is effectively limit what classes are usable. Can't really play a Magus or a Paladin...all it does is shoe-horn people into playing single stat characters.I agree. Op, try asking for a 15pt buy but no dumping. We have found that a 20 pt buy with no dumps works perfect.
Disagree. All I see happen with high point buy is the GM has to up the power of everything to match. I know of several GM's that increase the stats of virtually every single opponent by +2 to +4. The PC's gained nothing.
If your caster has just enough in the stat to cast his spells and the opposition are also all low point buy the relative rate of successful saving throws really doesn't change much.
Same thing with weapon attacks. If you attack stat is only 14 instead of the 18 you usually have, but the opponent's dex and con are only 12 and 14 instead of the 14 and 16 it would have in a campaign you are more used to, you probably came out about the same due to the lower AC and hit points.
The only way it makes a difference is if the GM gives the players only 10 point buy but the opponents are still built on something closer to 15-20 point buy. Then it gets really tough really fast. But actually, I kinda like that.
Hmmm...I'm liking the idea of either a Bard or an Oracle...never had either of them in our play group before, so it'd be interesting.
GM said he did it to keep us from being too powerful, but I think it's ridiculous to constrain stats like that, because it makes a Monk (my favorite class), a Magus (my second favorite class), etc impossible to play
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While I would say it's not cool for a GM to choose a PB amount that players aren't happy with, I also suggest you give it an honest try. I thought 15 was too low until I played an AP with it - now I'll never go back to 20 unless everyone demands it.
You certainly can do a MAD character with 10 points. A player in one of my groups just finished Carrion Crown, with no deaths, as a paladin rockin' a 7 point buy(rolled 10 10 10 10 12 14).
Let me ask you this, what do you want to play? If the point buy issue wasn't on the table, what would you create? Come up with that, and I bet we can find a way to make it work. Bigger bonuses are nice but not necessary.
@Kydeem: Our characters are generally not overpowered (aside from a Monk I made simply to make a point to the GM of that game). The GM for this game said he was giving us a 10 point buy and also beefing up the enemies...not good GM tactics. He referenced a 25 point buy for some of his enemies
@Kydeem: Our characters are generally not overpowered (aside from a Monk I made simply to make a point to the GM of that game). The GM for this game said he was giving us a 10 point buy and also beefing up the enemies...not good GM tactics. He referenced a 25 point buy for some of his enemies
So he is wanting to make it really tough. the point buy isn't the problem. If he gave you a 20 point buy that just means he would give the opposition a 40 point buy. They will still be tougher.
As ryric said. Decide what you want to play. Then figure out how to make it work well enough to play. Nothing is impossible to play. You just don't have as big a bonuses as you are used to. But no one does.
I will admit that a SAD class like wizard or cleric will have an easier time of it. But that doesn't make them the only thing possible.
You potentials of bard and oracle can do extremely well.
The GM for this game said he was giving us a 10 point buy and also beefing up the enemies...
And there's only three PCs? And one of them is a 10-point-buy fighter, one of the least flexible characters you could have? Yeah, you're in trouble.
a summoner would be outrageously powerful in a game like this- they are virtually 0AD (zero Ability Dependent) and the eidolon could (very) easily be built as a better combatant than any 10 pt fighter. the only drawback to this plan is that it will upset the guy who made a fighter that seems pretty useless.
another killer option would be to make an aasimar (if that's allowed) oracle with the nature or lunar mysteries. both of those will grant an animal companion and both have an ability that lets you use Cha instead of Dex for AC and something else (making you more SAD). you can also use your favored class bonus to make your animal companion based of your level x1.5 (and can take a feat to make it celestial). plus they're full casters instead of 6:9 like summoners.
apart from those two... any class with a pet will do well, any build that relies largely on summoning should do well, and the more SAD you are the better off you'll be. a cleric with the evangelist archetype focused on summoning will need some Cha (though doesn't need as much Wis) and should be pretty effective.
low point buys tend to punish melees much more than casters and make some classes/builds almost completely impossible to use (and that's why i never use them as a GM).
Slap him in the face with a synthetist. Or, any variant of a summoner actually.
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Here's how I'd do a Str magus with 10 points:
14 12 12 14 10 7, before racials.
If you want to Dervish it up, go:
10 14 12 14 12 7.
For a monk, it really depends on what you want to do with your monk. For sort of a standard "I punch things!" type monk, I'd try:
14 14 13 7 14 7, again before racials.
Remember that one of those 14s will likely become a 16 after racial bonuses. +3 in your best stuff is all you really need at level 1.
A wizard or a sage bloodlineline sorcerer if you also expect the Game to be a bit low on magic stuff. But a magus Can have 16 in str and dex and 12 in con and dex with 8 in wis and cha and versatile human. It Will be fine
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I really hate when a GM does the 10 pt buy thing. All it does is effectively limit what classes are usable. Can't really play a Magus or a Paladin...all it does is shoe-horn people into playing single stat characters.I agree. Op, try asking for a 15pt buy but no dumping. We have found that a 20 pt buy with no dumps works perfect.Disagree. All I see happen with high point buy is the GM has to up the power of everything to match. I know of several GM's that increase the stats of virtually every single opponent by +2 to +4. The PC's gained nothing.
If your caster has just enough in the stat to cast his spells and the opposition are also all low point buy the relative rate of successful saving throws really doesn't change much.
Same thing with weapon attacks. If you attack stat is only 14 instead of the 18 you usually have, but the opponent's dex and con are only 12 and 14 instead of the 14 and 16 it would have in a campaign you are more used to, you probably came out about the same due to the lower AC and hit points.
The only way it makes a difference is if the GM gives the players only 10 point buy but the opponents are still built on something closer to 15-20 point buy. Then it gets really tough really fast. But actually, I kinda like that.
Never said that anyone needs a high point buy. I personally like 15 and find that I can usually make even MAD characters work with it....10 pt buy is really difficult to make a decent monk, magus, paladin,etc. It can be done but it makes a PC that is significantly weaker than other PCs that are SAD characters. Never did I suggest a HIGH point buy, just that 10 is too low to make MAD PCs usable.
The problem with a lot of these suggestions is that you might wind up with no-one who can heal the fighter, unless the alchemist has some special technique.
The problem with a lot of these suggestions is that you might wind up with no-one who can heal the fighter, unless the alchemist has some special technique.
In which case, go with the druid w/animal companion.
A Wolf is especially point efficient.
@Kydeem: Our characters are generally not overpowered (aside from a Monk I made simply to make a point to the GM of that game). The GM for this game said he was giving us a 10 point buy and also beefing up the enemies...not good GM tactics. He referenced a 25 point buy for some of his enemies
The good news is that this campaign will be short.
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Here's how I'd do a Str magus with 10 points:
14 12 12 14 10 7, before racials.If you want to Dervish it up, go:
10 14 12 14 12 7.For a monk, it really depends on what you want to do with your monk. For sort of a standard "I punch things!" type monk, I'd try:
14 14 13 7 14 7, again before racials.Remember that one of those 14s will likely become a 16 after racial bonuses. +3 in your best stuff is all you really need at level 1.
And when the GM tosses in the 25 pt buy monsters and NPCs it should be fun to not have the +2 you could have to hit them or not be hit or to make a spell work with some degree of success...
10pt buy players and GM talking about 25 pt buy NPCs and monsters is just a recipe for player frustration. I look forward to reading the many horror story thread that will come of this in the future....
The problem with a lot of these suggestions is that you might wind up with no-one who can heal the fighter, unless the alchemist has some special technique.
Oracle says hi.
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10-point buy is effectively Pathfinder on Hard Mode.
For very experienced players, that can be the only way to offer a decent challenge without beefing up every encounter.
Honestly, you can build decent characters with a 10-point buy; even for classes that have multiple key stats.
e.g. L1 Human paladin, 10-point buy:
Str 15, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 14.
That's a perfectly useable character!
10pt buy players and GM talking about 25 pt buy NPCs and monsters is just a recipe for player frustration. I look forward to reading the many horror story thread that will come of this in the future....
Or it could be that the GM is trying to instill the fear of powerful monsters, while he really is going to use normal or weakened monsters. One of the GM's many tools is misdirection.
Here's how I'd do a Str magus with 10 points:
14 12 12 14 10 7, before racials.If you want to Dervish it up, go:
10 14 12 14 12 7.For a monk, it really depends on what you want to do with your monk. For sort of a standard "I punch things!" type monk, I'd try:
14 14 13 7 14 7, again before racials.Remember that one of those 14s will likely become a 16 after racial bonuses. +3 in your best stuff is all you really need at level 1.
And when the GM tosses in the 25 pt buy monsters and NPCs it should be fun to not have the +2 you could have to hit them or not be hit or to make a spell work with some degree of success...
10pt buy players and GM talking about 25 pt buy NPCs and monsters is just a recipe for player frustration. I look forward to reading the many horror story thread that will come of this in the future....
Man, why would someone do that to their group? My named NPC's have the same wealth and stats as the PC's. Unnamed have NPC wealth and -5 point buy. I wonder if the DM in question just isn't very strong with tactics or original build concepts.
What is MAD and SAD?
Multiple Attribute Dependent
Single Attribute Dependent
MAD Multiple Attribute Dependant (bad thing, because getting multiple stats up high is hard. paladins, monks, and rogues are MAD)
SAD single attribute dependant (good thing, because getting 1 20 to start with is easy. Caster types are very SAD. Which makes them happy.
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What is MAD and SAD?
MAD = Multiple Attribute Dependency
SAD = Single Attribute DependencyIt's an acronym that is shorthand for the ability scores needed by certain classes.
Casters are typically SAD in that they only need a good casting stat.
Then you have MAD clsses like Paladins that need STR and CHA, Maguses that need Str/Dex and INT, and Monks that need STR, DEX, CON, and WIS.
Human barbarian focusing on the superstition line, be a super glass cannon, sort of. 10 points doesn't inhibit the barbar in any way.
Put all 10 points into strength, the racial bonus into strength, and then rage for a final total of 22. I'd take power attack, furious focus, and then whatever you want. Watch the gm boil with rage as you still smack things for 2d6+12 at a +7 bonus, despite your low point buy..
A real suggestion would be to play a paladin, setting up with 14 str and 16 cha. You'll be a survivable pseudo healer.
I would totally go with a summoner and let the fighter fend for himself or pester the alchemist to get infusion discover/brew him potions.
Synthesist is particularly appealiing in so much as it would nearly make the gm's jerk move of a 10pt buy while beefing up enemies irrelevant.
And the summoner can still heal his eidolon (including in its fused form if he's a synthesist). Which is a plus.
Druid is also a good choice, just know that you'll struggle to fight with your druid, and wild shape would mostly be a utility item, its hard to make a combat ready druid on 10 points as their physical stats still matter.
The CRB advises a 10-point buy as a low fantasy campaign.
If that means high-powered races like Aasimar and Tiefling (alternate heritages offer tailored bonuses to divine and spontaneous casters, including secondary casters and martial hybrids) are out, that still leaves some very good race choices.
Ifrit make a good budget sorcerer (3 points in charisma will still give you spell access and save DC as per 17 charisma), but even though not high-powered, they're still exotic and high fantasy. Ratfolk might be unglamorous, but they make great witches and decent wizards. Hobgoblins have the lovely +2 DEX, +2 CON, and make great rangers, rogues, and inquisitors - perfectly good fighters or barbarians. They can also treat that as their staying-alive dex and con for full-casting squishies.
Basically the racial bonuses become much more important in such a tight point buy, though no race will entirely supplant humans with their custom +2 and bonus feat.
In response to the OP's question on class, and assuming no +10 RP races, with an alchie and a fighter you will need some healing power - a ratfolk Hedge Witch would be a solid healer commitment; but an oracle or paladin (human is probably best bet, maybe catfolk or gnome oracle) gives up nothing for healing power, while an inquisitor (dwarf, hobgoblin, or Oread with Earth domain) or bard (catfolk or ifrit with the Hypnotic ART) can pick up some cure spells for pinch healing.
Sorry for text wall.
Hmm, a dual talented human could work pretty well in a case like this. A cleric might not be too bad, just forget charisma (don't dump it, but don't help it).
Str 14 (12+2 racial), 10 dex, 13 con, wis 16 (14+2 racial), int 10, cha 10. It's a cheap cleric, based on your domains and deity (it really doesn't matter if it's a short campaign) you can have some good powers. Travel or Protection domain to shore up your saves or some movement abilities, and then a fun domain like strength or even love could be very fun. Maybe grab extra channel at first level to ensure that you have enough healing.
I'm going to second (or third or fourth, wherever in line I am) bard. Bard lets you make everybody , including yourself, better at what they do. I would actually recommend against the summoner. I think having the eidolon (which is far more powerful than any other "pet" in my opinion) would be at odds with what it looks like the GM is trying to accomplish with a low point buy.
I would go with a Human Bard. 12, 14, 12, 7, 10 14. +2 Racial into Dex.
Buff, Heal, Archery. Point Blank Shot and Arcane Strike at 1st level, Rapid Shot at 3rd. Avoid Save or Sucks (You're dc's are not good enough).
I like Low-fantasy games, so 10 PB doesn't bother me.... But it sounds like the DM isn't going to adjust challenges and that's an issue.
Frankly, when stuff like this (Low point buy with beefed up monsters)comes up, it's often a case of...
1> DM burn out, and time to pass the screen off to someone else, even if just for a short while. or
2> A Player (or players) who have gone "Rocket Tag" (Paging Mr. +17 Initiative God Wizard #354) or "Gimmick Build" (Paging Mr. Shocking Grasp Dirvish Magus #234) one to many times and the DM has had it. Also time for someone to take over for a bit.
That's just my experience at least.