I'm starting Carrion Crown next week as a vanilla Paladin.
It's 15 point buy with 200 starting gold.
My stats are;
Str 16 (14+2human bonus)
Dex 14
Con 10
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 14
I'm wearing a chain shirt and wielding a heavy metal shield, cestus and Longsword.
My feats are Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Shield Bash. (shields will be my go-to weapon.)
After looking at my character sheet it seemed less powerful than I would like. Can I survive like this? What can I do to survive better?
This is my first time playing a Paladin and it seems weaker than other 1st level classes I've had. I'm also a little concerned about the future as it's main offensive capabilities are less useful in taking down anything but singular creatures in a 30 minute workday.
How do I kill mooks when I'm this feat starved?
This is also the first time that I realized how few skill points and class skills a paladin actually has. No wonder players I GM play Paladin dumber than a sack of rocks. Any ways to play smart tactical paladin?
Eh, personally the first thing I'd do is rework your stats.
*Man 15 point buy is harsh*
Lower your dex to 12, and raise your con to 13. I'd throw the ability point increase at level 4 into con, where it will bump up your hit points and fort save. I wouldn't worry about dex too much, it will help your AC at low level but eventually you're going to be after full-plate or mithral full-plate or celestial full-plate. But in any of these events, you're also going to be able to get a Belt of Physical Perfection eventually too, to raise your strength, dex, and con.
Also, two weapon fighting is an inherently weaker fighting style. You're better of two handing a sword (or shield, it's totally legal). Power attack and furious focus are usually the go to feats for the two-handed fighting style. Just remember if you use a shield to attack with that you will also need the Improved Shield Bash feat.
Also, you should note that your original build doesn't qualify for two weapon fighting, which has a dex requirement of 15. And, as neither the shield or longsword are light weapons, would cause you to still have a -4 penalty to hit with each.
Personally, I urge you to drop two weapon fighting (it's inferior mechanically to two-handing) and decide to either two hand a greatsword or a shield. The shield version requires a lot of dedicated feats to get the most mileage out of it, but it is effective.
Malwing, I've got a 4th level paladin in my current campaign (also 15-point) and initially tried to build him as two-weapon as well. In the end I backed away from it because of the feat/gear costs involved. Pathfinder's mechanics have a pretty good hate on for that fighting style. (Your smite bonus to hit helps with the TWF penalties, but only against a couple (evil) bad guys per day. Didn't feel like enough to me.)
I agree with carving the Dex to get some constitution (you could take Con 13 and Int 12, if my math is right, and have another skill point to play with. Being short on skill points drives me nuts.)
I just wanted TWF to eventually get Shield Slam/Shield Master, and have something to do in case I lose my shield when I eventually start throwing it. Any way of doing something good with just the shield as a weapon?
I guess Acrobatic Swashbuckling Paladin is out of the question.
As a paladin, you'll be smiting a lot...
Do you know anything about the campaign setting, or the antagonists your GM likes to use? The above can be completely true, or not very true at all, depending on those things. From level 1 to 3, you'll be able to smite zero to one bad guy(s) per day.
If your GM likes 5 minute workdays and all undead all the time, you'll be smiting a lot. If he's into neutral bandits and gelatinous cubes, you might experience some feelings of disappointment.
Edit: Sorry, dumb question; you said it's Carrion Crown.
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Don't try to TWF with a paladin. It's more trouble than it's worth. Drop dex, bump con, and maybe even drop wis (since you get cha to saves and fast will save progression).
I played a paladin through Carrion Crown with a two-handed weapon style and it was quite enjoyable. If you want to TWF shield bash you should probably be a fighter or ranger. Paladins are all about their class features, not their feats. I strongly recommend an oath of vengeance.
EDIT: also, fearless aura is a winner.
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As a paladin, you'll be smiting a lot...Do you know anything about the campaign setting, or the antagonists your GM likes to use? The above can be completely true, or not very true at all, depending on those things. From level 1 to 3, you'll be able to smite zero to one bad guy(s) per day.
If your GM likes 5 minute workdays and all undead all the time, you'll be smiting a lot. If he's into neutral bandits and gelatinous cubes, you might experience some feelings of disappointment.
It's Carrion Crown. It's all undead, all the time, with an occasional splash of other evil-to-the-core things. You will never have enough smites. Once again, I highly recommend the oath of vengeance to get more smites. Maybe even take extra lay on hands to get more after that.
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Lowering Wis a little is also viable.
Personally, I'd go Str 16 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 13 Wis 8 Cha 14 and grab Unsanctioned Knowledge at higher levels (say, 7th or so). Go with a single two-handed weapon, grab Fey Foundling and Power Attack at 1st, use your Favored Class bonuses on skills, and you'll have 5 skill points per level, 6 if you raise it to 14 later.
Raise Str and Cha with items as you progress, and you'll be very solid. As for limited number of Smites...Oath of Vengeance really helps with that. And will be very handy in Carrion Crown, I suspect.
For one thing, you don't qualify for TWF. You need 15 dex for that. I ran into the same problem building a 15 point TWF ranger ;)
That said, I would like to argue for TWF. As a paladin, you'll be smiting a lot, which means that you deal a lot of damage from just the class. It's added to every attack, so while it may not pay off at low levels, at higher levels I think the 50% increase in power attack and strength is lower than the extra bonus from smite.
Why would you run into that problem with a ranger? Your combat style enables you to ignore the prerequisites of two weapon fighting, provided you choose the two weapon fighting combat style. At level 1 you two hand a one handed weapon with power attack, at level two you grab a light weapon and the two weapon fighting feat without the prereq.
And smiting "a lot" is relative. At level 4, it's 4 enemies a day. Who have to be evil. Sure, you will demolish those enemies with your bonuses from Smite, that is nothing new. But against non-evil enemies, like animals, and against evil enemies after your Smite have run out he wont have much combat ability. If he keeps two weapon fighting he will probably need to pick up weapon finesse because he is going to have to drop his strength to compensate.
For a 15 point buy character, you're not going to be very effective two weapon fighting unless you're a Ranger and can ignore the dex requirement.
While 15-point buy is standard for APs, I think most DM's use the PFS standard of 20.
Anyways...
Ability Scores: Definitely need to up your Con. Melee with 10 Con might as well turn in their character sheet.
Suggestions (these are all post racial bonus of +2 to Strength)
1) Str 16 Dex 12 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 14 (like Claxon suggested.)
2) Str 16 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 14 (extra HP per level, lower AC but make sure to get decent armor first chance you get with that dropped Dex.)
3) Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 14 (This one has lower will save at level 1, but at level 2, that gets alleviated greatly when you add Cha to it. Immunity to fear at level 3 would be useful throughout the AP)
Feats: Power Attack. And two-hand something like longsword/greataxe/greatsword/morningstar. Whatever. If do wanna stick with shield, only do it for first level. That shield is gonna mess up lay on hands (at 2nd level) and casting spells (at 4th level) in the future. For second feat, I'd suggest Weapon Focus. If you got an Wis 8, maybe pick up Iron Will if you're worried will saves are too low.
Personal Play Experience: I played with a human paladin in my Carrion Crown party that didn't have power attack, he was essentially useless in damage when it came to DR, Hardness (that will be an issue sometimes), and overall needing things to die faster.
Traits: What traits did you pick for yourself? Who's your deity? Do you worship Iomedae? Check out Chosen of Iomedae. Masterwork longsword! Or Rich Parents could get that too I suppose. Outfit yourself in decent stuff.
Equipment: I assume you have standard starting cash of 175 gp for paladins? Skip the chainshirt. That's for rogues. You got a lousy Dex mod with that 15-point buy, work around that. You might not like the speed penalty, but you can buy mithral in the future. Check out the PRD for armor. Get scale mail. If your GM allows some eastern armor (some GMs are whiners about Eastern stuff in a "western game"), consider kikko or four-mirror armor depending on how much money you got. If you're insisting on using shield, sure longsword. If you picked up some medium armor that would allow your AC to be as good as with a shield to begin with, go bigger weapon with power attack (example: greatsword or nodachi or falchion) and lay a hurting on monsters. Current decent weapon choices for paladins often recommend 18-20/x2 or x3 or x4 crit weapons, as paladins can multiply their smite damage on crits.
Skils: DEFINITELY have social skill or two. Preferably Diplomacy if you're comfortable with it. Carrion Crown has quite a bit of social interactions and Diplomacy would make your life easier. Especially when you got a decent Cha. Knowledge (religion) is also good if your GM is good about giving out monster knowledge/lore (in this case: undead).
Do you plan on having a mount at level 5? I'm not sure I'd recommend it, as the AP doesn't afford a lot of space or decent terrain to use it all the time I think.
I forget about agile, but the problem remains that until about 5th level you can't afford a single Agile enhanced weapon, and you can't afford two until 6th. And both of those assume you use all your wealth to afford those items.
Wading through 5 levels of crap damage just to finally start benefiting later on, to deal about the same amount of damage per round as the two-handed fighter or barbarian has been dealing? No thanks. Now the paladin can benefit greatly since his smite damage will apply from every attack, but still that just means he blows through single enemies slightly more quickly. And when the smites run out, he becomes lackluster again.
Butterfly's Sting is awsome, but that is a very different approach than what I believe the OP is after. Keen kukris and a friend with a scythe can be amazing. But in this situation, it's probably better to be a scythe wielding paladin (wierd concept, and oh the glory of 4x damage including Smite damage!)
I just wanted TWF to eventually get Shield Slam/Shield Master, and have something to do in case I lose my shield when I eventually start throwing it. Any way of doing something good with just the shield as a weapon?
I guess Acrobatic Swashbuckling Paladin is out of the question.
An acrobatic swashbuckler paladin is NEVER out of the question.
Wish I saw this post before my first reply.
With just the shield as a weapon puts you in the Captain America/Andoran build territory, which is among my favorites/
Str 16 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 14
Traits: Reckless (acrobatics +1 and class skill!)
Feats:
1) Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack. Two-hand that shield. Maybe spiked shield for lower levels 1d6+4 or 1d6+7 power attacking.
3) Weapon focus (heavy shield)
level 4 = up Dex to 15
5) Two-Weapon Fighting
7) Shield Slam
9) Your choice for this slot: Improved Crit? Toughness? Extra Lay on Hands if you're doing Oath of Vengeance.
11) Shield Master
Just having Acrobatics as class skill and maxed out will allow you to jump and balance decently even in heavy armor.
But if you want to be more acrobatic, go more Dex based.
Str 14 Dex 16 (14+2 racial) Con 12 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 14.
Maybe be a paladin of Sarenrae. Use Dervish Dance with a Scimitar. Lamellar leather armor. Or pick up Elven Curve Blade
Feats:
Elven Curve Blade
1) Weapon Finesse. Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Curve Blade)
3) Power Attack
Make it an +1 agile weapon first chance you get.
Dervish Dance.
1) Weapon Finesse. Weapon Focus (scimitar)
3) Dervish Dance (remember the 2 ranks in Perform dance)
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Just a point here, as I didn't see it mentioned:
If you are fighting weapon and shield as a paladin, use a light shield. TWF or no. Reason? Lay on Hands can be done with the hand holding the light shield, but not a heavy shield. So, your swift action becomes two move actions and a swift for Lay on Hands using a heavy shield.
Captain Andoran as a paladin fighting with just a heavy shield? Carry on!
STR 16 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 10 WIS 8 CHA 14 IS the way I'd go with it.
Capitalize on the DEX for AC, and plan on rocking a breastplate or chain mail later on. Human let's you pick up something like either Toughness or Fast Learner (preferably the former due to INT requirements) which can help make up for a lack of CON.
I say pick up a BFS, but I always say that. A regular sword and a shield when you need it should suffice. Points are too low for a successful TWF build.
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If you're set on using the shield I'd go two-handed heavy shield. Maybe do a two level dip into ranger to pick up TWF as a no-prereq bonus feat, then take all the shield feats up to shield master. Pick up power attack when you get a chance. As has been stated, you will need a hand free to lay on hands yourself and cast spells. If you really want to TWF, use a cestus.