Zhayne wrote: Cornellius Aggredor wrote: Zhayne wrote: Daenar wrote: . Sorry, but Cleric, Druid, and Wizard are broken right out of the gate. Core is not even remotely balanced. This is your opinion. Not mine.
It's nobody's opinion. It's fact. Also I would argue that "right out of the gate" is terribly inaccurate. I'm never met a full caster that out shines a martial character completely until they hit about level 4 or 5 and usually it is level 5 or 6 until they really start to out shine the martials characters
Sitri wrote: If the players accept the social contract that they are all playing together, you don't have to ban anything. It is just when a player is so superior to the others that you can't make a real challenge without TPK if the allstar falls that you run into trouble. If they are not trying to eclipse anyone, let it run. That one, and the other is when a player without noticing make a character that is so weak that he can not contribute meaninfully. In this regard monks can be decently optimized but they could be a trap for begginers.
mswbear wrote: Zhayne wrote: Cornellius Aggredor wrote: Zhayne wrote: Daenar wrote: . Sorry, but Cleric, Druid, and Wizard are broken right out of the gate. Core is not even remotely balanced. This is your opinion. Not mine.
It's nobody's opinion. It's fact. Also I would argue that "right out of the gate" is terribly inaccurate. I'm never met a full caster that out shines a martial character completely until they hit about level 4 or 5 and usually it is level 5 or 6 until they really start to out shine the martials characters In our 13th level game, our fighter is still far and away the most dangerous PC in the party, which includes a oracle, a Sorc, a cleric and a bard.
And yes, ban Evils. Not to mention CN "murderhobo" types.
I would start from a different direction. Think first about what kind of world you want, and what kind of campaign in that world. A piracy campaign in a high-magic setting where ships use wands of fireballs instead of cannons is very different from a gritty Thieves' World type of campaign, or one where the PCs are minor nobles scheming to increase their influence at the imperial court. The rules you allow or disallow can then be more easily chosen to reflect the kind of game you're running.
For example, my World of Battersea campaign is inspired by the great cities of the ancient world: Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, etc. I therefore banned monks, ninjas, and samurai, not because there's anything wrong with them, but because they really don't fit in that kind of setting. I would probably make an exception though if a player came up with a really good reason why their character is thousands of miles from home. Gunslingers and alchemists are also banned, and I am not likely to allow an exception for them because the technology to support those classes doesn't exist in my world.
Oh, and once you know the setting and theme of your campaign, make sure you communicate it clearly to prospective players, so they'll self-select for the ones who want that kind of a game!
Metamagic Rods = the most powerful classes can now essentially buy feats that really help them. Even without them they still are amongst the most powerful classes.
Pearls of Power and Pages of Spell Knowledge or equivalent items = limits sorcerers and wizards and makes them more distinct.
mswbear wrote:
Also I would argue that "right out of the gate" is terribly inaccurate. I'm never met a full caster that out shines a martial character completely until they hit about level 4 or 5 and usually it is level 5 or 6 until they really start to out shine the martials characters
I think I mentioned further up the thread but I actually played a 1st level wizard who outshined the other PCs in combat.
Icy Turbo wrote: I am hopefully going to be able to run a Pathfinder campaign using the Core Ruleset only, and I can't wait to try my hand at DM'ing, as I almost never do it in such a format. However one thing that bothers me is I do not have a encyclopedic knowledge of the game. So in Core, what are some things I should try to avoid using, or ban from use in general? I once saw a thread talking about Leadership, but other than that I'm not too sure. I am not sure if my post will get lost in the melee of posters arguing about what and what is not OP but here goes...
My personal MOST IMPORTANT rule on banning as a GM is that I ban anything that I do not have easy access to. Generally this means that if I do not have the book it is banned. If a player wishes to use something I have not seen before they must submit it to me for review.
My reasoning for this is that as a GM it is my job to know the world of the game and be able to act/react to player's actions accordingly. If a player can use something I can too. If something appears to be OP I need to know what its weaknesses are so I can counter it if needed. Acting as a balancing agent to make the game fun is almost impossible if I do not have access to the source material from which the imbalance arises and this is the easiest way to make something OP.
Of course golden rule of "it's my world" can be used to fix the problem as well, but having to constantly bludgeon your players with GM fiat to balance things out is a quick way to make them no longer want to play.
If banning everything except the Core Rules is not enough, and you are looking for something else to ban in the Core Rules, I offer Grappling for consideration. Most DMs consider Grappling rules to be vexing.
Silkinsane wrote: My personal MOST IMPORTANT rule on banning as a GM is that I ban anything that I do not have easy access to. Generally this means that if I do not have the book it is banned. If a player wishes to use something I have not seen before they must submit it to me for review.
My reasoning for this is that as a GM it is my job to know the world of the game and be able to act/react to player's actions accordingly. If a player can use something I can too. If something appears to be OP I need to know what its weaknesses are so I can counter it if needed. Acting as a balancing agent to make the game fun is almost impossible if I do not have access to the source material from which the imbalance arises and this is the easiest way to make something OP.
Of course golden rule of "it's my world" can be used to fix the problem as well, but having to constantly bludgeon your players with GM fiat to balance things out is a quick way to make them no longer want to play.
To elaborate, Silkinsane is pretty lenient on this. For example, I wanted to grab a few levels of the Lore Warden archetype, so I bought the Pathfinder Society Field Guide, brought it to a session that I knew we were going to level up during, and showed it to him while asking if I could take it. He asked me what I was planning on doing with my levels and I explained that I wanted the Combat Expertise for bravery trade. He said sure, and now I have levels in Lore Warden.
Sometimes that's all you need: communication. Don't smash your player's dreams without knowing what it is that they want to do.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: If banning everything except the Core Rules is not enough, and you are looking for something else to ban in the Core Rules, I offer Grappling for consideration. Most DMs consider Grappling rules to be vexing. They aren't that complicated. Besides, a jillion monsters have grab, and a lot of them wouldn't really function without it.
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