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Let say that I'm using Use magical device has an alchemist to activate a scroll and I want to cast it adjacent to an enemy but I don't want to get hit or move.
Can I cast it defensively even tho Im not a caster?
How would it work since I got no caster level?
I can emulate the ability score modifier with Use Magic Device but can I emulate my caster level has well?
Concentration Checks and Casting Spells
To cast a spell, you must concentrate. If something interrupts your concentration while you're casting, you must make a concentration check or lose the spell. When you make a concentration check, you roll d20 and add your caster level and the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type.
CASTING DEFENSIVELY
If you want to cast a spell without provoking any attacks of opportunity, you must make a concentration check (DC 15 + double the level of the spell you're casting) to succeed. You lose the spell if you fail.
Th problem is th axtion your using is read a scroll wbich provokes. While the scroll casts a spell that isn't relevant.
Really? then someone with no spellcasting can't cast a scroll in front of an enemy? thats kinda weak o.O. I tought you could emulate the caster level with use magic device.
Really? then someone with no spellcasting can't cast a scroll in front of an enemy? thats kinda weak o.O. I tought you could emulate the caster level with use magic device.
U can activate a scroll in front of an enemy but it provokee an attack of oppertunity. Since you are not the caster but the scroll is what casts the spell, u cannot cast defensively.
If u were casting a spell you would provoke unless u cast defensively.
if u use a scroll u provoke bcause u are using a magical device and when the spell goes off you dont provoke then because its the scroll is what "casts" the spell.
So using a scroll ur gonna provoke.
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Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
It depend on how you read "exactly as casting a spell" but I think you can try to cast defensively from a scroll. The problem is that you use your caster level, not that of the scroll, and only the relevant caster level, so if you are a wizard casting a sorcerer/wizard spell you use you class level as your caster level, if you are a cleric you have a CL of 0.
Its kinda sad.., we need our old concentration skill check again -_-.
Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.It depend on how you read "exactly as casting a spell" but I think you can try to cast defensively from a scroll. The problem is that you use your caster level, not that of the scroll, and only the relevant caster level, so if you are a wizard casting a sorcerer/wizard spell you use you class level as your caster level, if you are a cleric you have a CL of 0.
I see that it provokes exactly as casting a spell does but does not allow for casting defensively exactly as a spell does. Just because it provokes does not mean it allows casting defensively.
It is like drinking a potion, it is also like activating a spell and it provokes an attack of opportunity and the is no way to cast/drink defensively.
Its kinda sad.., we need our old concentration skill check again -_-.
My contention is that even if a non-caster had the skill like back in 3e or 3.5, they could not cast from the scroll defensively so it is not an issue here.
So you are telling me that in d&d 3.5 you weren't able to cast a scroll defensively ? o.O
I cannot find any rule in 3.5 that says you can cast defensively while activating a scroll. It says:
"Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance."
Nothing that I find says that you can activate a scroll defensively any more than you an drink a potion defensively in either Pathfinder of 3.5 D&D.
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Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.It depend on how you read "exactly as casting a spell" but I think you can try to cast defensively from a scroll. The problem is that you use your caster level, not that of the scroll, and only the relevant caster level, so if you are a wizard casting a sorcerer/wizard spell you use you class level as your caster level, if you are a cleric you have a CL of 0.I see that it provokes exactly as casting a spell does but does not allow for casting defensively exactly as a spell does. Just because it provokes does not mean it allows casting defensively.
It is like drinking a potion, it is also like activating a spell and it provokes an attack of opportunity and the is no way to cast/drink defensively.
Noticeably different test for the potions:
Using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity.
Nowhere it say "exactly as casting a spell". Actually it don't mention casting at all when it say that it provoke.
So does anyone here has a clear answer? can I cast defensively while using a scroll with a none spellcaster class? what if I can cast a scroll defensively with a none spellcaster class, what would be my concentration calculation?
When you make a concentration check, you roll d20 and add your caster level and the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type. So my caster level would be 0? -_-
Yeah I hit the FQ tag but the question rules team takes forever to see this! :(
I understand your point Lazar and you are probably right, the problem is that some people here says the opposite (like for example Diego Rossi) and this creates some confusion. Whos wrong and whos got the right answer? hehehe
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(This question came up again, so I'm casting Raise Thread.)
Look at the rules for provocation. Then examine the action in question and break it down into all it's component parts... If any of those parts provoke, the action provokes.
Using a scroll involves unrolling a piece of parchment (or equivalent) and manipulating it into reading position. That means you are INHERENTLY lowering your defense.
Since you are completing a spell and not casting it the normal mechanism for casting defensively does not apply here.
I'm sorry, but this is not correct. If there were no specific rules to go on, then it would a be a reasonable ruling, but the rules do refer to casting scrolls defensively.
In the PRD, under Actions in Combat we have the following text (emphasis is mine):
Many magic items don't need to be activated. Certain magic items, however, do need to be activated, especially potions, scrolls, wands, rods, and staves. Unless otherwise noted, activating a magic item is a standard action.
Spell Completion Items: Activating a spell completion item is the equivalent of casting a spell. It requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. You lose the spell if your concentration is broken, and you can attempt to activate the item while on the defensive, as with casting a spell.
Spell Trigger, Command Word, or Use-Activated Items: Activating any of these kinds of items does not require concentration and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Following the link to spell completion items brings us to the magic items page, where we have the following text:
Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that's left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can't already cast the spell, there's a chance he'll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
So a scroll is a spell completion item, and you can cast defensively when you use a spell completion item.
The only outstanding question is whether you use the scroll's minimum casting stat for your concentration check or use your own. I would say that you use your own casting stat, because casting defensively is completely your action, not inherent in the scroll itself.
What happens if you don't have a caster level in the correct class for that spell and you have to Use Magic Device to cast the scroll? There's nothing under the Use Magic Device skill description about provoking an attack of opportunity, so the normal rules for the "activate a spell completion item" action should apply unchanged. In this case, I'd use whatever casting stat the spell would normally use.
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(This question came up again, so I'm casting Raise Thread.)
Look at the rules for provocation. Then examine the action in question and break it down into all it's component parts... If any of those parts provoke, the action provokes.
Using a scroll involves unrolling a piece of parchment (or equivalent) and manipulating it into reading position. That means you are INHERENTLY lowering your defense.
Since you are completing a spell and not casting it the normal mechanism for casting defensively does not apply here.
I'm sorry, but this is not correct. If there were no specific rules to go on, then it would a be a reasonable ruling, but the rules do refer to casting scrolls defensively.
In the PRD, under Actions in Combat we have the following text (emphasis is mine):
Many magic items don't need to be activated. Certain magic items, however, do need to be activated, especially potions, scrolls, wands, rods, and staves. Unless otherwise noted, activating a magic item is a standard action.
Spell Completion Items: Activating a spell completion item is the equivalent of casting a spell. It requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. You lose the spell if your concentration is broken, and you can attempt to activate the item while on the defensive, as with casting a spell.
Spell Trigger, Command Word, or Use-Activated Items: Activating any of these kinds of items does not require concentration and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Following the link to spell completion items brings us to the magic items page, where we have the following text:
Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no...
I would say this is further supported by the fact that Cyphermages can get a +4 to their check to cast defensively from scrolls if they choose the correct cypher lore.
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Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check.
This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.
Read that two piece of UMD.
Emulate a class: you count as a member of that class with a level of your UMD check -20.Use scroll: CL of the scroll +20.
If you succeed at the Use scroll check you are emulating a level in a class that is exactly what you need to cast the scroll safely. If you fail the check you don't activate the scroll.
So your check has a binary result:
- successful "use scroll" check: you have emulated the CL needed to cast the scroll safely.
- failed check: you are unable to activate the scroll.
There is no problem with failing the CL check to activate a spell completion item, the UMD check has already taken care of that.
The rules are silent on casting from a scroll defensively. I do not think it is possible because when you use a scroll the spell has already been cast. You are just completing the magic.
What about the "Spell Completion Items: Activating a spell completion item is the equivalent of casting a spell. It requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. You lose the spell if your concentration is broken, and you can attempt to activate the item while on the defensive, as with casting a spell." quoted above?
What about the "Spell Completion Items: Activating a spell completion item is the equivalent of casting a spell. It requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. You lose the spell if your concentration is broken, and you can attempt to activate the item while on the defensive, as with casting a spell." quoted above?
I noticed that, but there are still no rules for casting defensively and that is a problem because you have the CL from the scroll, and the creator's attribute which is assumed to be the minimum for DC's, and th actual user of the scroll. It seems like a place where rules were supposed to be provided but Paizo messed up.
Similar to knowledge skills not saying you can't take 10, but there is a bard class feature saying you can take 10 on knowledge checks. It needs to be FAQ'd or errata'd.