RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 23 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Items like the headband of inspired wisdom grant a bonus to an ability score. Each such item includes this line:
Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn.
What does it mean for an ability bonus to be treated as temporary?
Well, according to this FAQ, temporary ability bonuses do everything that permanent ability bonuses do.This leaves us with a question:
Anyone who can't point to an answer, please click the FAQ button. Thanks!
Temporary vs. Permanent on the PRD
During the temporary phase, you only specifically get the temporary bonuses listed on the page above. When they become permanent, you also get the other bonuses listed.
So, for your Wisdom item:
Temporary increases to your Wisdom score give you a bonus on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws.
This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom (when the boost becomes permanent).
Good question.
I read the linked FAQ as a bit of a backpedal on the concept of temporary versus permanent bonuses. The temporary bonus behavior was supposed to speed gameplay up, but instead it introduced more complexity to the system and slowed gameplay down.
Going by my hazy recollection of some old designer posts, the only things intended to be left out during those first 24 hours are skill ranks and daily resources (such as bonus spells or rage rounds). But I'm not in a position to track such things down, and in any case those aren't official FAQ or errata.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Temporary vs. Permanent on the PRD
During the temporary phase, you only specifically get the temporary bonuses listed on the page above. When they become permanent, you also get the other bonuses listed.
So, for your Wisdom item:
Temporary increases to your Wisdom score give you a bonus on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws.
This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom (when the boost becomes permanent).
Incorrect. Read the FAQ:
Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.
The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.
Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.aa
So...it's outdated verbiage for anyone running their character electronically, while still functioning as a rough shortcut for those exclusively using pencil and paper?
Going by my hazy recollection of some old designer posts, the only things intended to be left out during those first 24 hours are skill ranks and daily resources (such as bonus spells or rage rounds).
Skill ranks are an interesting one. If you had an item that grants an intelligence bonus and doesn't specifically state that it doesn't grant skill ranks. The headband of vast intelligence has a special rule about skill ranks, as does the fox's cunning spell. But the Crimson Sphere Ioun Stone does not. It's just an enhancement bonus to intelligence.
If you could toggle a bonus to intelligence off and on at will, and it granted skill ranks, you could potentially pick and choose new skills to max out with full ranks each time, allowing you to situationally have any skill with max ranks temporarily.
So you've got a stat-boosting item that grants, say, +2 to Strength. Your strength is naturally 17 without the item and you only just found it and put it on. Congratulations! Your effective Strength is now 19 for almost all purposes. Almost. Because until you've taken a day to attune the item to you your ACTUAL Strength is still counted as 17 for purposes of ability damage and drain. If you get attacked by undead Shadows and get hit 3 times for max damage (3x6=18 pts of Str damage), you are now an undead thing. Had you found that belt a day earlier, you'd still be alive (at 1 Strength).
I believe lamontius is correct in a way. From reading the faq its treated as the first 24 hours it automatically enhances the obvious stuff and that its up to the player if they want to slow down the game by figuring out the nittygritty stuff like with bull strength and ur carrying capasity. Yes it does effect all that the buff but gives the option to hold off a bit to fill in the nittygritty until up to 24 hours later.
Its almost as if its a 4th wall enhancement in that it gives 24 hours ingame time to do the math on everything it enhances. Meaning a player who receives the item can chose to forgo the nittygritty details if they are in the middle of a dungeon so they dont have to slow combat or the story down to go and track down the nonobvious stuff it changes BUT if a player choses since it does effect everything a player at anytime within 24 hours of equiping can do the math anytime from the moment they put it on and to have it done by 24 hours ingame
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Temporary vs. Permanent on the PRD
During the temporary phase, you only specifically get the temporary bonuses listed on the page above. When they become permanent, you also get the other bonuses listed.
So, for your Wisdom item:
Temporary increases to your Wisdom score give you a bonus on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws.
This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom (when the boost becomes permanent).
The fact that the FAQ contradicts this indicates, to me, that there was a shift in intent on how bonuses work, and perhaps we need updated text in those headbands to reinstate old restrictions.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
So you've got a stat-boosting item that grants, say, +2 to Strength. Your strength is naturally 17 without the item and you only just found it and put it on. Congratulations! Your effective Strength is now 19 for almost all purposes. Almost. Because until you've taken a day to attune the item to you your ACTUAL Strength is still counted as 17 for purposes of ability damage and drain. If you get attacked by undead Shadows and get hit 3 times for max damage (3x6=18 pts of Str damage), you are now an undead thing. Had you found that belt a day earlier, you'd still be alive (at 1 Strength).
This appears to contradict the FAQ.
I don't see the contradiction there, unless something in the ACG started casting off of strength.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.the way I read it, bonus spells aren't the same as rolls...
In that sentence, there was "stats and rolls", and all you saw was "rolls"?
Additionally, had you bothered to click the link I went to the trouble of posting in the OP, and read the very first sentence, you'd have found this:
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do.
I'm having trouble seeing how bonus spells based on your casting stat would somehow be outside the realm of "anything relating to that ability score".
So you've got a stat-boosting item that grants, say, +2 to Strength. Your strength is naturally 17 without the item and you only just found it and put it on. Congratulations! Your effective Strength is now 19 for almost all purposes. Almost. Because until you've taken a day to attune the item to you your ACTUAL Strength is still counted as 17 for purposes of ability damage and drain. If you get attacked by undead Shadows and get hit 3 times for max damage (3x6=18 pts of Str damage), you are now an undead thing. Had you found that belt a day earlier, you'd still be alive (at 1 Strength).This appears to contradict the FAQ.
True. Per the CRB, though, under Ability Score Bonuses, it says this (emphasis added):
Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours.
The only things the CRB lists as being increased by temporary ability score increases are the epiphenomena of the ability scores, not the scores themselves. There is no need for the word "actually" in the quoted sentence above or, indeed, for ANY distinction between temporary and permanent bonuses if they do exactly the same thing.
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.the way I read it, bonus spells aren't the same as rolls...
really aside from spells and temp vs perm hp there's nothing else that the difference between temp and perm matters.
Well there are skill ranks and bonus languages for +INT...though those are usually specifically covered under the item or spell description.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
What is the difference in functionality between the first 24 hours of wearing a stat-boosting item, and the time thereafter?
In the FAQ and in previous threads, I'm pretty sure the only difference is the allowance for things like X/day abilities that are only granted for things that you had the bonus 24 hrs.
So if you get X/day based on your Cha, then you don't get that additional 1/day for a +2 Cha until 24 hours elapsed.
So...it's outdated verbiage for anyone running their character electronically, while still functioning as a rough shortcut for those exclusively using pencil and paper?
Something like that. Not an ideal situation, I know, but what can one do?
|
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.the way I read it, bonus spells aren't the same as rolls...In that sentence, there was "stats and rolls", and all you saw was "rolls"?
Additionally, had you bothered to click the link I went to the trouble of posting in the OP, and read the very first sentence, you'd have found this:
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do.I'm having trouble seeing how bonus spells based on your casting stat would somehow be outside the realm of "anything relating to that ability score".
The question then evolves into whether or not you may immediately access those "spell slots" or do you need to rest first.
|
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.the way I read it, bonus spells aren't the same as rolls...In that sentence, there was "stats and rolls", and all you saw was "rolls"?
Additionally, had you bothered to click the link I went to the trouble of posting in the OP, and read the very first sentence, you'd have found this:
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do.I'm having trouble seeing how bonus spells based on your casting stat would somehow be outside the realm of "anything relating to that ability score".
No, but what on earth aside from rolls do stats affect that aren't obviously included in their comment? (ie aoo if you have combat reflexes, save dcs, damage, to hit, ac, saves, etc...)
The answer is spells per day, abilities per day etc.
When I rage and get a temp increase to con, do you think I automatically get two rounds of rage free with a +4 con bonus? What happens when I lose that free round, and rage again, do I get again?
The answer is no that's silly and clearly someone reading more into it than they should.
Ability Score Bonuses
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.Strength: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Dexterity: Temporary increases to your Dexterity score give you a bonus on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The bonus also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Constitution: Temporary increases to your Constitution score give you a bonus on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points. When the bonus ends, remove this total from your current and total hit points.
Intelligence: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.
Wisdom: Temporary increases to your Wisdom score give you a bonus on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.
Charisma: Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
What is the difference in functionality between the first 24 hours of wearing a stat-boosting item, and the time thereafter?In the FAQ and in previous threads, I'm pretty sure the only difference is the allowance for things like X/day abilities that are only granted for things that you had the bonus 24 hrs.
So if you get X/day based on your Cha, then you don't get that additional 1/day for a +2 Cha until 24 hours elapsed.
I'm looking at the FAQ and not seeing room for such a difference:
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do.
Can you help me understand how spell slots and X/day abilities based on a given stat are able to fall outside the realm of "anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses"?
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
The answer is spells per day, abilities per day etc.
So spell slots gained from a high ability score don't count as being related to that ability score? Your bonus spells for high INT are unrelated to your INT?
When I rage and get a temp increase to con, do you think I automatically get two rounds of rage free with a +4 con bonus?
You would, which is why the rage class feature specifically states not to do so; something it wouldn't have to state unless it would otherwise be a natural consequence of the CON boost. Therefore, you have no argument.
Jiggy is correct that the FAQ wording still doesn't clarify anything (it actually raises more concerns).
That being said, it looks like a FAQ to the FAQ is in order.
The fix is really much simpler than you make it out to be Jiggy. Just include a general clause in the initial Temporary Bonuses paragraph that says something like "Temporary bonuses to an ability score do not apply to abilities and resources that use ability scores to determine their effective result." Problem solved, and it covers all the bases that need to be covered in a single, fairly short sentence.
|
|
The answer is spells per day, abilities per day etc.So spell slots gained from a high ability score don't count as being related to that ability score? Your bonus spells for high INT are unrelated to your INT?
When I rage and get a temp increase to con, do you think I automatically get two rounds of rage free with a +4 con bonus?You would, which is why the rage class feature specifically states not to do so; something it wouldn't have to state unless it would otherwise be a natural consequence of the CON boost. Therefore, you have no argument.
Giving your theory on why it states it is pretty special, I'd say it mentions it there just to prevent players thinking they found some special exception.
but to answer the spell slot question Your bonus spells for a high Intelligence are unrelated to temporary intelligence bumps.
Bonus spells/abilities/slas etc are only gained after a night of rest and a certain time period between use and rest. It's easier to say when they are permamnent rather than to say "well if your temp bonus lasts for 22-23.9 hrs and you use it in the last 1-1.9hrs and rested during that time right before it.
|
|
There is a distinct list in your glossary that defines what you get from temp bonuses. The FAQ merely tells you in a short hand fasion what temp bonuses do without getting into that level of detail.
I'd go one further to say it was a FAQ given due to many emails where people just don't read the glossary section and doesn't actually over ride or correct anything specific or create some general rule that over rides what's written currently.
It's clear by the FAQ he was trying to make it less work for people to figure out what a temp bonus does. ie treat it sorta like an advanced template etc...
|
|
Why do you assume the glossary when it lists temp bonuses and how they affect things are contradictory and don't make sense? Like an example would be great...
For example, attack rolls using Weapon Finesse aren't affected by temporary Dex increases. Only Spell DCs and Channeling DCs are affected by temporary stat increases.
ith a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls.
Strength: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Ok... so now you use your dex modifier as if it were str for attack rolls... See the above for how strength is affected with attack rolls on a temp basis... boy that was rough.
Jiggy is correct that the FAQ wording still doesn't clarify anything (it actually raises more concerns).
That being said, it looks like a FAQ to the FAQ is in order.
The fix is really much simpler than you make it out to be Jiggy. Just include a general clause in the initial Temporary Bonuses paragraph that says something like "Temporary bonuses to an ability score do not apply to abilities and resources that use ability scores to determine their effective result." Problem solved, and it covers all the bases that need to be covered in a single, fairly short sentence.
Define "effective result".
Why doesn't it include things like Spell DC's or bonus damage from abilities?
The effective result would be if the ability score actually was permanently added; it's simply removed from the equation is what it translates into. (It's also merely an example, of which I'm sure the publishing executive could do a better job of clarifying than I can. It's not like I'm certified or anything...I'm just saying it can most certainly be that simple of a fix, if not simpler.)
Spell DC's aren't an "ability or resource," whereas Spells are, so temporary bonuses would apply to that.
The big problem is people basically "munchkining" their resources (extra spells per day, extra rage/performance rounds, etc.) something which is obviously not intended with temporary bonuses. You could probably remove the "abilities and" part and the meaning would come across a lot clearer.
I hope this gets fixed up, one way or another, real soon.
This is what happens when you try to read too heavily into things...
It's downright confusing even when you read it lightly.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's downright confusing even when you read it lightly.
That's why I refuse to read anything. Rules are much easier to understand if you ignore them entirely. :)
The problem with interpreting that rule this way is for example:
I can now have multiple +2 Headbands of Intelligence. They're 4k each, in the later game that's cheap.
Now I put it on and boom, instant maxed skill.
I switch it, boom, instant different maxed skill.
I put on a +Int item as a Wizard, and suddenly have an unused spellslot?
It's empty obviously, so I spend 15 minutes preparing some spell in it. Then I go and cast that spell.
Now I take the item off. The spellslot vanishes again. But meh, it was used anyway. Or does one of the unused ones vanish?
Now I put the headband back on. I get a new unused spellslot?
Sorcerer puts on a +Cha headband and gets an empty spellslot.
He casts a level 1 spell, and then takes the headband off.
Was the spell cast like this, that additional spellslot, or one of his other available level 1s?
I don't think when they said "it works for everything permanent bonuses do" the were thinking of spellslots and the like.
I don't know the original question but "Why does it only apply to some things?" most likely was asking about a thing that logically would be improved by a +Str item (and that everyone improved) but wasn't mentioned specifically, and not Spellslots. Whoever answered it was thinking of Strength items (you see all the examples given in the FAQ are Strength?)
So yes, sometimes the way you ask your FAQ question is sometimes causing different answers.
Edit: Found it:
+4 temporary increases to Strength: How does it work? FAQ or Errata in the Core book or NPC Codex?
That's the threat where the FAQ was eventually posted on (page 5)
It was asking if a temporary Str would get the 50% damage increase from two-handing the weapon.
Just quickly looking over the thread, it seems most every talk there was about Strenght or Con based stuff.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Items like the headband of inspired wisdom grant a bonus to an ability score. Each such item includes this line:
Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn.What does it mean for an ability bonus to be treated as temporary?
Well, according to this FAQ, temporary ability bonuses do everything that permanent ability bonuses do.This leaves us with a question:
Anyone who can't point to an answer, please click the FAQ button. Thanks!
You don't get the bonus spells for the increased characteristic and the extra skill point and languages from intelligence.
Similarly you don't get daily uses of special abilities linked to your increased characteristic.|
|
The fact that the FAQ contradicts this indicates, to me, that there was a shift in intent on how bonuses work, and perhaps we need updated text in those headbands to reinstate old restrictions.Temporary vs. Permanent on the PRD
During the temporary phase, you only specifically get the temporary bonuses listed on the page above. When they become permanent, you also get the other bonuses listed.
So, for your Wisdom item:
Temporary increases to your Wisdom score give you a bonus on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws.
This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom (when the boost becomes permanent).
No shift in intent, it simply was an attempt to address the bunch of people crying about "temporarily increasing my strength don't increase my carrying capacity" without listing what was and wasn't affected by increasing each single ability and without using several pages of explanations for a what is a simple thing.
It failed as some people want a very detailed description of what is affected.|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
You don't get the bonus spells for the increased characteristic and the extra skill point and languages from intelligence.
Similarly you don't get daily uses of special abilities linked to your increased characteristic.
Lots of people keep saying this, but the FAQ says to treat temporary bonuses identically to permanent ones, and permanent bonuses give you those things. Therefore, with even the most basic level of logic, temporary bonuses give you those things unless the specific effect contains an exception (such as how all the stat-boosting spells have an exception that you don't gain spell slots).
Except no one has so much as bothered to post a quote or link that I can see.
For all we know it's all made up!
Lots of people keep saying this, but the FAQ says to treat temporary bonuses identically to permanent onesWe are saying that because the dev team has previously explained that.
Please post a link where the dev team has explained so we can read what was actually said.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Except no one has so much as bothered to post a quote or link that I can see.
There are way too many of them to post.
Here are a few:
Sean on temp mods in thread involving Ravingdork
Sean on the guidelines that rejects /day uses and allows all others
They can't formulate a sentence that says "you know it when you see it" in terms of when you shouldn't be using the temporary bonus and when you should.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ultimately it comes down to our desire to wade into minutia until they write out pages to explain a concept only 5 of us will every truly understand and the rest will get bored before they finish reading.
So in simplest terms:
It works on anything that isn't a daily resource