Earth nations as races

[LirkaTrend]

I get the feeling that this tread is going to rise some ethical questions...
Here goes...
So i got this idea of a series of adventures that take place in alternatve earth... The idea was based on one of russian 3,5 campaigns "Alfrika" and was loosely based on Paul Andersons books as "Three Hearts and Three Lions", "A Midsummer Tempest" and "The Broken Sword" and the consept of Seven Powers.
This campaign was human-centric, where elves were rare, dwarves lives in Carpatian mountains, and halflins were a vassal race of German Holy Empire.
And each human nation of the Earth was reimagined as human subrace.

i was thinking to convert those human sub-races, and I was hoping that some good samaritanin would lend be a helping hand...

Francs (950 A.D.) - French, German, North-Spanish, Anglo-Saxon
Religion: Christian and Pagan

3,5:

No atribute bonus
bonus feat
bonus skills
restricted classes: barbarian, monk

Pathfinder:

Human attribute bonus
bonus feat
bonus skill rank
restricted classes: barbarian, monk

Italians (950 A.D.)
Religion: Christian

3,5:

+2 Intelect, - 2 Constitution
bonus feat
bonus skills
Cosmopolitan feat (allows to refer any skill of choice as a class one)
+2 Diplomacy, Sense Motive, -2 Survival
restricted classes: barbarian, monk

Pathfinder:

+2 Intelect, - 2 Constitution - The people of italian state-cities are well educated, but spoilt
bonus feat
bonus skill rank
bonus feat
Diplomacy, Sense Motive - class skills
restricted classes: barbarian, monk

Normans (950 A.D.) - Skandinavia, Norvegia, Sweden, Iceland, Denmark
Religion: Christian and Pagan

3,5:

+2 Strenght, -2 Wisdom
bonus feat
bonus weapon feat
restricted classes: wizard, monk

Pathfinder:

+2 Strenght, - 2 Wisdoms - The normans are famous for being ferious warriors, but also infamous for there short-temper
bonus feat
bonus combat trait
Intimidate - class skills
restricted classes: wizard, monk

Celts (950 A.D.) - Ireland, Scotland, Wells
Religion: Christian and Pagan (Druidism)

3,5:

No attribute bonus
2 bonus feat
bonus skills
restricted classes: paladin

Pathfinder:

Human attribute bonus
bonus feat
bonus skill rank
One to choose from as a class skill - Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Local), Survival
restricted classes: paladin

Saracen (950 A.D.)- Caliphat of Cordoba and Abbasid Caliphate
Religion: Muslim and Zoroastrianism

3,5:

-2 Strength, + 2 Dexterity
bonus feat
bonus skills
Linguist and Ride - class skill
restricted classes: druid

Pathfinder:

-2 Strenghth, + 2 Dexterity - People living in a dry climate tend to be agile, and quite frail
bonus feat
bonus skill rank
Linguist and Ride - class skill
restricted classes: druid

Jews (well, okay the campaign take place in the alternate Earth, but it's still Earth, right?)
Religion: Judaism (duh!)

3,5:

+2 Intelect, - 2 Charisma
bonus feat
bonus skills
Linguist - class skill
+4 Haggle
restricted classes: sorserer, monk, paladin, druid, barbarian

Pathfinder:

+2 Intelect, -2 Charisma - Really? Need I say why?
bonus feat
bonus skill rank
Linguist - class skill
+2 Appraise
restricted classes: sorserer, monk, paladin, druid, barbarian

Gypsy/Roma people (approximately after 1453 A.D. but hey! it's an alternative earth, so it's possible that they could apeear earlier)
Religion: um... that's quite tricky...

3,5:

No attribute bonus
bonus feat
bonus skills
+4 Survival, Ride, Animal handle, Perception
-2 Reputation
restricted classes: cleric, monk, paladin, wizard, barbarian, monk

Pathfinder:

Human attribute bonus
bonus feat
bonus skill rank
Linguist - class skill
+2 Survival, Ride, Animal handle, Perception, Acrobatics
restricted classes: cleric, monk, paladin, wizard, barbarian, monk

Hungarians\Magyars (890 A.D.)
Religion: Well, the do say that they are christians, but...

3,5:

+2 Dexterity, - 2 Intelect
bonus feat
bonus skills
+2 Ride and class skill
restricted classes: wizard, cleric, paladin, monk

Pathfinder:

+2 Dexterity, - 2 Intelect - the magyars are born riders, but at the time of campaigh there nation is at period of clan wars, there are no time for education!
bonus feat
bonus skill rank
+2 Ride, Animal Handle and one of this is a class skill of choice
restricted classes: wizard, cleric, paladin, monk

Byzantians (890 A.D.) - Greek, mostly
Religion: Christian, for sure

3,5:

No atribute bonus
bonus feat
bonus skills
Linguist - class skill

Pathfinder:

Human atribute bonus
bonus feat
bonus skill rank
+2 Diplomacy
Linguist - class skill
Emisary trait
restricted classes: sorcerer, druid, barbarian, monk

Slavs\Slavians
Religion: Mixture of christian and pagan

3,5:

+2 Wisdom, -2 Intelect
+4 Survival or it's a class skill
restricted classes: wizard, monk

Pathfinder:

+2 Wisdom, - 2 Intelect Living in the swamp and forest areas close to the nature spirit the slavs tend to be rather spiritual people, but at the same time rather supersticious
+2 Survival
Knowledge (Nature) - class skill
restricted classes: wizard, monk

Still there? Wow, that's great!
So, thank you for reading and I hope that this tread won't rise any hatred ^^'
Anyway, ready to hear critique and advices

[cnetarian]

I think when restricting classes you should consider dividing arcane magic into 'formal' and 'wild' classes - the lawful/civilized/western nations would limit and restrict 'wild' magic users like sorcerers & witches, while the chaotic/uncivilized/barbarian nations would lack the schools and restrict access to 'formal' magic users (wizards).

[avr]

First, I suggest you use the term cultures rather than sub-races. Asking for trouble otherwise.

The setup sounds suspiciously like the Warhammer fantasy one toned down a little. You might want to steal from their setting consciously if you haven't already.

The cultures listed seem OK by balance, though I'm not sure why the Slavs would lose the usual human feat/skill bonuses.

[Deadmanwalking]

This...seems like a bad idea. The closest I'd come to this would be suggesting particular attributes to focus on, and Feats to choose, for particular cultures (ie: Vikings generally putting their Human bonus to Str or Con, and favoring combat Feats like Power Attack). You can use the alternate Racial Traits in the ARG to accentuate these differences as well. Along with the class restrictions, this should make different cultures fairly distinct without the unfortunate implications this idea has.

Because, frankly, humans simply don't diverge in basic capabilities like intelligence or health as much as this implies along either racial or cultural lines...and the implication they do is both inaccurate and racist (even if unintentionally so). I mean giving 'Jews' a bonus to Appraise and a Charisma penalty is...pretty g&$*##n racist, as is the Slavic or Magyar Int penalty.

As a side note, the races are also really poorly done mechanically, with some being vastly superior to others...which only reinforces the whole 'racist' thing.

In short, this is just a really bad idea on every possible level for a host of reasons. Do not do it.

[Renegadeshepherd]

I think it's great idea for those who are open to that cup of tea. What I'm curious about is what do you need? If you want an analysis of each culture based on history that could take a long time and like base pathfinder the balance issues will be ridiculous.

One major piece of input I can offer is there are entire continents of earth that isn't even mentioned. The tribal people of all the Americas are not represented as far as I can tell and the considerable part of Africa is missing too. Asia is VAGUELY mentioned. Is only European continent and those they wared with involved in this campaign?

[Renegadeshepherd]

Add on...

Perhaps instead of juggling various mechanics you could simply offer bonuses to going down specific classes. For example, historically the Italian people have been a very deeply religious people and wanted to spread their belief above most concerns. To reflect that just give em a favored class bonus to divine caster classes that is more powerful than what we normally see. No one gets offended, its more balanced, simpler, and no one is shackled to what you seek.

[Balgin]

LirkaTrend wrote:

dwarves lives in Carpatian mountains

Surely the dwarfs are all living in Yorkshire, Lancashire & Wales complaining about Maggie Thatcher closing the mines in the 1980's......

If you really want to go alternative earth there are legends of a pale skinned tribe of warriors of a short stature who live up in the Himalayas and very aggressively guard a secret. I've come across at least two mentions of them in literature (and I do mean respectable literature, not cheap pulp fiction). Wish I could remember what that tribe was called.

The Suomi people of Finland were also often referred to as dwarfs by the vikings due to them being about a foot shorter (and highly skilled craftsmen).

Oh I see. You're planning on running a very Euro-centric game. From the mention of Africa I was thinking 1930's pulp although the more historical sounding titles you claimed didn't seem to fit in with that particular genre.

avr wrote:

The setup sounds suspiciously like the Warhammer fantasy one toned down a little. You might want to steal from their setting consciously if you haven't already.

The only main difference I'm seeing is that the Warhammer World is late medieval/dawn of the renaissance whereas you seem to be aiming for a late dark ages/early medieval kind of feel. Depending on how intrinsic the time period is to you, you might simply want to consider playing the game using Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, Yggdrassil, Call of Cthulu/Runequest (without the "everyone has magic in Runequest" rule) or a handful of other systems that encourage a more historical low fantasy kind of feel.

Ooh, you know what? Maelstrom would be really good for a game like this (imagine WFRP lite in a historical setting). The Maelstrom Domesday edition would be perfect for what you're after. While it's officially set in England in 1086 (when king William the Conqueror sent out surveyors to perform the Doomsday book (our first national survey) it could easily be adapted to a slightly earlier time. If you're wanting a more viking focussed game then I'd highly recommend Yggdrassil.

If you're really set on using Pathfinder then you might want to tone down some of the racial modifiers and assumptions you have made (such as lumping all pagan faiths together and assuming they are all one).

[Balgin]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

As a side note, the races are also really poorly done mechanically, with some being vastly superior to others...which only reinforces the whole 'racist' thing.

In short, this is just a really bad idea on every possible level for a host of reasons. Do not do it.

Yeah. That's kind of why I was suggesting some other alternative (less racist) game systems specifically set up to run this kind of game. I don't think AD&D (1st edition, 2nd, 3rd, Pathfinder etc) would work well for alternate earth historical games because it's level based and the vast majority of character classes are spellcasters of one kind or another. The excess Disney level of magic would spoil the historical feel.

[Threeshades]

Have to agree with deadman.

Also the con penalty for italians and wis for normans. The explanations are just bad and wildly inaccurate stereotypes.

[Sitri]

Lirkatrend wrote:

Jews +2 Intelect, -2 Charisma - Really? Need I say why?

While I normally find people who are quick to claim offense quite annoying, if someone were to take issue with this statement, I don't think I could blame them.

[Chris Lambertz]

Locking. These kinds of generalizations about religion/ethnicity are not OK on paizo.com. Please revisit the messageboard rules.