I have a question: I have had a terrible time trying to build a melee character. I thought that a monk would be a good way of starting out, since I typically go caster. My campaign is getting to the point where we need a bit more power than what we have. We are running the Reign of Winter series (We are currently in the Rasputin Must Die! Book) and are having difficulties with only 4 party members (an inquisitor, were-boar barbarian, my oracle, and a wizard). I asked my GM if I get Leadership as a "bonus" feat so I can add some power to the team. Unfortunately for me I've never made a melee character. I thought that I would use the monk's superb move speed bonuses to help up disrupt the swarms of gunslingers (spoilers, sorry). I've never built a melee character, and after some thought and reading, I think I've got a pretty good first melee character.
Level 13 Human Martial Artist Monk
Strength 18
Dexterity 16
Constitution 14
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 12
Charisma 7
Feats:
Combat Expertise - Add to touch AC bonus
Combat Reflexes - Just to gain more AoOs and make them flatfooted
Dodge - never can have too much AC
Fast Learner - Get both bonuses, since he's the Martial Artist Archetype
Improved Disarm - to get rid of those pesky guns
Improved grapple - to occupy some the troops
Improved Unarmed Strike - Bonus
Leadership - He's the primary character now with a oracle as healbot
Medusa's Wrath - because everything I've seen says you need/want this
Mobility - more dodge AC
Snapping Turtle Style - shield bonus
Snapping Turtle Clutch - shield bonus to touch
Snapping Turtle Shell - more shield bonus
Snatch Arrows - to actually stop the bullets
Stunning Fist - and bonus from Class
*Improved Initiative - +4 to Initiative, cause why not (at level 15)
Traits:
Dangerously Curious - So he can use the Mage Armor wand himself
Reactionary - +2 to Initiative
Are there anything you guys suggest?
I haven't given him an armor, but I know i'll give him an amulet of Bullet Protection. Maybe bracers of armor and the monk specific cloak. Definitely a ring of protection.
Any other thoughts?
Monk wouldn't be my first choice to add "power" to a campaign. From the group you've shown you shouldn't really need any power. Those are all high tier classes. Is your group just not optimized or what? I ask because it gives a good starting point for suggestions.
You seem to be really worried about those gunslingers. Your wizard should be more than able to slow them down. The sheer number of spells that screw with ranged attackers is astounding.
If your dead set on a monk though then I'd recommend changed up your feats at least.
How is combat reflexes making them flatfooted?
Snapping Turtle Style is probably not worth it. 3 feats for +2 to AC? I know you want it for the touch ac but meh.
Medusa's Wrath is worthless unless someone is going to be applying the status effect for you.
Improved Disarm is fine but Improved Grapple is not. If anything Improved Grapple seems to go against what you're wanting to do. It might lock one target down, but it locks you down against one target.
Fast Learner is pointless. You don't need the skill points. In fact I think you're wasting build points on int. It could easily be lower.
Speaking of stats, are the stats you listed rolled or point buy? If it's a point buy then they're off for what you want for a monk. If it's rolled then you really need to swap Int and Wis.
Are you allowed to use the ACG playtest classes?
Brawler would work well.
I would swap your stats to the following:
Strength 18
Dexterity 14
Constitution 14
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 16
Charisma 7
Wis is more important than DEX as Sense Weakness and your Stunning Fist DCs are based on WIS, and Monk AC bonuses apply when Flat-footed, DEX does not.
Intelligence really isn't needed. Also Combat Expertise is not worth it. Your AC is going to be good as it is, and Monks have terrible accuracy, the hit penalty inst worth it.
Snapping Turtle Style is terrible unless you are a grapple specialist, which you are not. Snake Style will do more for you Defensively, or Dragon Style will really boost your damage as you are STR based.
While I like Martial Artists, they loose access to Quinggong, which will give you access to Barkskin.
Gunsmith, we had a good group of 6, with a superstitious human barbarian and a tengu gunslinger, but both of the players haven't been to the sessions in about two months. And I forgot that the guy playing the were-boar changed to a sorcerer.
The wizard is a complete newbie, and although a good rp-er, never picked the right spells and his character died last week. One of the guys we play with is working with him to revamp his character.
And in the campaign setting, yes, we are fighting swarms of Russian soldiers. I was thinking either a monk (for his bonus movement speed) or a fighter (all those extra feats) so I could fight instead of always just healing every turn I got. And the gm said that we got two extra points for creation.
Doesn't Combat Relflexes let me have AoO's flat-footed?
And like I said, I've never built a melee character, so I feel like I've made a good character, but I just wanted to make sure before I get killed. And now I feel it's not so great, but don't take it personally, I'm just a newbie (been playing for about a year).
Blackbloodtroll, we are allowed to use ACG, but I run into the same problem of how all the combat feats work.
Combat Reflexes lets you make AoOs while you are flat-footed, but that would not come up that much, unless you are being attacked by tiny creatures, or you have reach.
How about Power Attack?
Don't be afraid of multiclassing for being a melee character. In fact, you really shouldn't think of building your melee character in terms of class at all.
You (One) should think a bit about the kind of effects you want to create, and what you want your character to look like.
Then you should look at feats and class abilities in all the resources that you think are cool.
Then you should put them together, and map out at which levels you take which things.
Then you take another look at your character and decide he or she is like: what do they order in a bar? How do they dress? What is the funniest joke they ever heard? Don't feel the need to come up with all this stuff right away. Come up with some of it. Roleplay with your character for a while, and let him or her tell you what their childhood was like (Grammar rules suk!). You might want to talk with your DM about how your character will fit in his world. I did this with one DM saying my character was a sort of a Highland Scot with a Lochaber Axe, and he said, "That sounds like he must come from this part of my world, here," and he showed me on his map. Another DM liked my idea so much, he changed his geopolitics to match my character's backstory.
That's my advice to the OP, anyway. I hope it helps. If you want, you can expand on your ideas, and I'll expand on my advice. I do like pontificating expansively.
Oh, you DID expand on your ideas.
I saw Combat Reflexes, but I don't see any feats that generate Attacks of Opportunity. Look into that. Maybe Snake Style, Broken Wing Gambit, Tripping, Bull Rushing? Improved Disarm is sort of an AoO build.
I think the cool thing about the Martial Artist is that there is no alignment restriction, so this is a way of being a Monk/Barbarian.
I like Grappling, and you can develop grappling into awesomeness with just a few more feats. You have Improved Grapple. If you take Great Grapple and Rapid Grappler, you can grapple, pin, and tie up your opponent in 1 round. If you take 2 levels in Cavalier Order of the Penitent, you can Grapple and Tie Up your opponent in 1 round. You might do this with Flurry of Maneuvers (Master of Many Styles Monk Archetype) and an Alchemist's Tentacle or the Hamatula Strike feat.
Medusa's Wrath is on a 1-big-hit feat tree starting with Scorpion Strike, then I think Gorgon's Fist, Medusa's Wrath, then Cockatrice Strike. I'm not sure, but maybe you could link those with Tiger Style, Stunning Fist, and Vital Strike. Maybe you could add Power Attack and take a level in something arcane and cast True Strike the moment before your big hit?
I think Dodge and Mobility would go well with Snake Fang and Panther Claw. Be a Master of Many Styles. Take Snake Style at Level 1 Monk and Snake Fang at Level 2 Monk. Take the Unarmed Fighter Archetype, and take Panther Claw. Within a 20 point buy character, you should score yourself 6 bonus attacks between the 2 by provoking lots of AoO's.
Imbicatus wrote: I would swap your stats to the following:
Strength 18
Dexterity 14
Constitution 14
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 16
Charisma 7
Wis is more important than DEX as Sense Weakness and your Stunning Fist DCs are based on WIS, and Monk AC bonuses apply when Flat-footed, DEX does not.
Intelligence really isn't needed. Also Combat Expertise is not worth it. Your AC is going to be good as it is, and Monks have terrible accuracy, the hit penalty inst worth it.
Snapping Turtle Style is terrible unless you are a grapple specialist, which you are not. Snake Style will do more for you Defensively, or Dragon Style will really boost your damage as you are STR based.
Thanks for the help, I swapped the scores, like you suggested and added a headband of wisdom (for 21 score) and nixed the Snapping Turtle and took the Snake style. That actually helped a lot last night.
Gunsmith Paladin wrote: Monk wouldn't be my first choice to add "power" to a campaign. From the group you've shown you shouldn't really need any power. Those are all high tier classes. Is your group just not optimized or what? I ask because it gives a good starting point for suggestions.
You seem to be really worried about those gunslingers. Your wizard should be more than able to slow them down. The sheer number of spells that screw with ranged attackers is astounding.
If your dead set on a monk though then I'd recommend changed up your feats at least.
How is combat reflexes making them flatfooted?
Snapping Turtle Style is probably not worth it. 3 feats for +2 to AC? I know you want it for the touch ac but meh.
Medusa's Wrath is worthless unless someone is going to be applying the status effect for you.
Improved Disarm is fine but Improved Grapple is not. If anything Improved Grapple seems to go against what you're wanting to do. It might lock one target down, but it locks you down against one target.
Fast Learner is pointless. You don't need the skill points. In fact I think you're wasting build points on int. It could easily be lower.
Speaking of stats, are the stats you listed rolled or point buy? If it's a point buy then they're off for what you want for a monk. If it's rolled then you really need to swap Int and Wis.
thanks for your input, I nixed Combat Expertise and took Stunning Fist Adept.
This is the final result, that only took 35 points of damage last night and took out a watchtower and 4 fighters last night:
13th Level Chaotic Good Martial Artist Human Monk
STR 18
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 13
WIS 21
CHA 7
Fast Learner
Dodge
Deflect Arrows
Catch Off-Guard (the point that unarmed opponents are flat-footed opponents actual helped last night)
Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike)
Stunning Fist Adept
Snake Style
Improved Disarm
Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Medusa's Wrath
Leadership
Improved Unarmed Strike
Stunning Fist
Improved Initiative (replaced Improved Bull Rush)
Combat Reflexes
Equipment:
Boots of Speed
Wand of Mage Armor (although I might make it a Wand of Shield)
Monk's Robe
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +4
Cloak of Resistance +5
Bracers of Armor +3
Amulet of Bullet Protection +4
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Are you allowed to use the ACG playtest classes?
Brawler would work well.
Yes, but I'm not an advance player, I've looked at the shaman and am considering making a character just for shiggles, but I think that me going to the ACP guide right now would be a mistake for a melee character, but I appreciate your imput.
jobysama wrote:
Thanks for the help, I swapped the scores, like you suggested and added a headband of wisdom (for 21 score) and nixed the Snapping Turtle and took the Snake style. That actually helped a lot last night. Glad I could help :)
However, I did see some issues with your equipment...
Equipment:
Boots of Speed
Wand of Mage Armor (although I might make it a Wand of Shield)
Monk's Robe
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +4
Cloak of Resistance +5
Bracers of Armor +3
Amulet of Bullet Protection +4
One: Boots of Speed is a great item, but it's slightly less good for monks as the movement doesn't stack with monk movement.
Two: Amulet of Bullet Protection instead of an Amulet of Mighty Fists??? You already have a very high touch AC, so a situational bonus vs firearms is not worth not having an enhancement bonus on your attacks.
Medusa's Wrath is still worthless on your build. The stun from Stunning Strike wears off before your turn comes around again. Unless someone in your party is applying one of the necessary debuffs to cause Wrath to kick in then you've been incorrectly using the feat.
Unless you really feel that you need an extra skill point then Fast Learner is still not needed.
I'm also going to recommend dropping the Bullet Protection for an Amulet of Mighty Fists.
You can keep the wand of mage armor, and pick up some potions of shield. You can activate both in the same round if you have them both handy.
You could probably stand to swap some of your gear around and try to pick up a +dex item. It'll add to your touch AC and overall AC. Maybe try to grab a +str item as well. There's a belt that combines them together.
Gunsmith Paladin wrote: Medusa's Wrath is still worthless on your build. The stun from Stunning Strike wears off before your turn comes around again. Unless someone in your party is applying one of the necessary debuffs to cause Wrath to kick in then you've been incorrectly using the feat. Actually, it does work with your own Stunning fist, assuming you are making the stunning fist as part of a flurry.
Stunning Fist wrote: Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next turn). A stunned character drops everything held, can’t take actions, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a –2 penalty to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
Special: A monk receives Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A monk may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.
There is not an action cost to Stunning Fist other than making it as part of an unarmed strike, so if you hit with the stunning fist attempt you can still make the rest of your iterative attacks. If your target failed the save and is stunned, you can make the extra attacks from medusa's wrath.
Medusa's Wrath wrote:
Benefit: Whenever you use the full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike, you can make two additional unarmed strikes at your highest base attack bonus. These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.
Imbicatus wrote: Stuff I'm really unsure about that interpretation. I don't know of anything else that you suddenly gain benefits in the middle of an action. Got an FAQ or any evidence at all that this is the case? Other than just how random people on the forums rule it? Because it just seems to me that the whole point of Gorgon's Fist (the prereq) is for you to set up Wrath for yourself next round.
Gunsmith Paladin wrote: Imbicatus wrote: Stuff I'm really unsure about that interpretation. I don't know of anything else that you suddenly gain benefits in the middle of an action. Got an FAQ or any evidence at all that this is the case? Other than just how random people on the forums rule it? Because it just seems to me that the whole point of Gorgon's Fist (the prereq) is for you to set up Wrath for yourself next round. There is the text of the feat itself. If you make a full attack with unarmed strikes, then you can make two extra attacks against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe. The prerequisite Gorgon Fist is just one way to make someone staggered, but the feat doesn't care about it, and a monk can take Medusa's Wrath as a bonus feat negating the need for prerequisites.
I'm going to re-quote the text of Medusa's Wrath
prd wrote:
Medusa's Wrath (Combat)
You can take advantage of your opponent's confusion, delivering multiple blows.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Gorgon's Fist, Scorpion Style, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: Whenever you use the full-attack action and make at least one unarmed strike, you can make two additional unarmed strikes at your highest base attack bonus. These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.
The feat itself states that you gain the extra attacks when you full attack with an unarmed strike. You aren't gaining benefits in the middle of an action. You gain the benefit when you make a full attack with an unarmed strike. The extra attacks are always there, they can only be made against a target that is dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious. By stunning a foe with stunning fist with your first attack in a flurry (by definition a full attack with an unarmed strike), that foe is now a valid target for the additional attacks granted by Medusa's Wrath.
Here are rules threads that support this, but there isn't a FAQ.
Imbicatus wrote:
One: Boots of Speed is a great item, but it's slightly less good for monks as the movement doesn't stack with monk movement.
Two: Amulet of Bullet Protection instead of an Amulet of Mighty Fists??? You already have a very high touch AC, so a situational bonus vs firearms is not worth not having an enhancement bonus on your attacks.
jobysama wrote:
One: Boots of Speed is a great item, but it's slightly less good for monks as the movement doesn't stack with monk movement.
Two: Amulet of Bullet Protection instead of an Amulet of Mighty Fists??? You already have a very high touch AC, so a situational bonus vs firearms is not worth not having an enhancement bonus on your attacks.
I'll probably end up giving the boots to my oracle companion, if that's the case.
Also, the reason I took bullet protection was I was more wary of the guns/touch AC (26 without my amulet) than AC (33 with everything). I meta-knowledges that and it actual was beneficial. My gm was rolling above average on the attack rolls, but 4 shots all night still hit my 33 TAC. As previously stated, I actually on took damage from one bullet. I could probably have my oracle add the benefits of Mighty Fists to the bullet amulet (if that is possible??) since I designed her to be the crafter/healer (she's a healbot that is deaf, with telepathic bond set on me). This was the only option I had since I wanted to start doing melee and I had to make her useless for combat. She's got extra channel, craft wondrous, extra revelation, fey foundling, craft wand.
Imbicatus has it right. He is a seasoned Monk player.
I'm confused about the OP's build. How are you able to take Medusa's Wrath without first taking Gorgon's Fist and Scorpion Strike?
Do you in fact have those feats, but just shorthanded them off your post to save space? Is there some new rule: an FAQ or something that changes the prerequisites for Medusa's Wrath?
Also, who is using your Wand of Mage Armor? Hopefully not you. You have no spellcaster levels, and with your 7 Charisma, your Use Magical Device bonus can't be that high. A common tactic in Pathfinder Society is for the character to purchase magic items, especially a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, to be used by other characters, spellcasting characters on them.
The same way Ranger builds end up with feats they shouldn't have, a class based exception. Monk and Ranger bonus feats are way cooler than say Fighter and Wizard bonus feats because you explicitly ignore all the prerequisites.
Gregory Connolly wrote: The same way Ranger builds end up with feats they shouldn't have, a class based exception. Monk and Ranger bonus feats are way cooler than say Fighter and Wizard bonus feats because you explicitly ignore all the prerequisites. Yup, I see it. Thanks.
Typically Medusa's wrath is best level 10 bonus feat when your a flurry of blows/stunning fist build. If your giving up those abilities then your better off with another feat choice. Typically. But I'm no monk expert...only have played one and was disappointed with the class as I do with most classes that can't cast a spell (Ignoring Ginggong SLA as real magic as it is extremely limited).
But I can vouch for Imbicatus as I see him on the forums a lot and he is good at making martial characters. Everything he has suggested thus far on the monk is solid advice that will help you get more out your character.
What I can add is:
Quote: Equipment:
Boots of Speed
Wand of Mage Armor (although I might make it a Wand of Shield)
Monk's Robe
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +4
Cloak of Resistance +5
Bracers of Armor +3
Amulet of Bullet Protection +4
All I can say is bracers of Armor is a bad investment until +5 enhancement. Your better off with wands of Mage armor and shield (as suggested). As well as potions of Bark-skin is not getting Qinggong monk.
You can save money on a cloak of resistance+5 by going down to a +3 and buying a Knight's Pennon, Battle for heroism 1/day. Adds +2 to the saves and costs 4,500.
Amulet of mighty fists or Amulet, Forge/Frost Fist. The Mighty fists amulet is Superior but Forge Fist isn't too bad but eventually your unarmed are treated as adamantine so the Mighty fist Becomes a lot better once you reach that point.
Boots of the Cat if you give up Slow fall. then upgrade into boots of Haste or Winged boots. Both Haste and flight is needed into higher levels.
Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
All I can say is bracers of Armor is a bad investment until +5 enhancement. Your better off with wands of Mage armor and shield (as suggested). As well as potions of Bark-skin is not getting Qinggong monk.
You can save money on a cloak of resistance+5 by going down to a +3 and buying a Knight's Pennon, Battle for heroism 1/day. Adds +2 to the saves and costs 4,500.
Amulet of mighty fists or Amulet, Forge/Frost Fist. The Mighty fists amulet is Superior but Forge Fist isn't too bad but eventually your unarmed are treated as adamantine so the Mighty fist Becomes a lot better once you reach that point.
Boots of the Cat if you give up Slow fall. then upgrade into boots of Haste or Winged boots. Both Haste and flight is needed into higher levels.
My party has 3 people that can cast heroism and haste (and do so every chance they get), so that's not an issue, although I will definitely keep the pennon in mind for another character.
I originally was going to get the +5 enchantment, but didn't have enough money, so I just dropped to the +3.
As to the amulet itself, is there a way to add additional types of bonuses to it? The reason I ask is that I intentionally my deaf oracle Craft Wondrous Item as a feat (I like some of my casters to have it so the party doesn't go wasting all that gold). Could she not cast Divine Favor on either of the amulets, effective giving my monk benefits from both amulets in one slot?
Also, I plan on giving my Boots of Speed to the oracle and then possibly the Boots of the Cat. We have people that can cast Overland Flight >1/day but at this point in the series of books, I don't find the need for the Boots of Winged Feet, but thank you for the suggestion.
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