Both mechanics require that the creator have\know the required items\spell apart from the needed creation talent.
It's possible to increase the DC by 5 for each missing prerequisite, but it's also possible to access the needed prerequisites through another spell-caster or magic item. Now my question is: Is it possibile to use a charged rod as a spell source? If yes what is going to be consumed, a charge or the whole rod? In case of failure the rod is destroyed or just a charge is consumed?
Furthermore "In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
Is it possible to use external sources also for this mechanic?
I'm pretty new to the game and I found this mechanic confusing because it looks like that one rod could be exploited to craft another fully charged rod =)
Am I right? What did I missed in the rules?
Thanks in advance!
Maxiride wrote: Is it possible to use external sources also for this mechanic? You or someone involved in the crafting must supply.
Maxiride wrote: Both mechanics require that the creator have\know the required items\spell apart from the needed creation talent.
It's possible to increase the DC by 5 for each missing prerequisite, but it's also possible to access the needed prerequisites through another spell-caster or magic item. Now my question is: Is it possibile to use a charged rod as a spell source? If yes what is going to be consumed, a charge or the whole rod? In case of failure the rod is destroyed or just a charge is consumed?
Furthermore "In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
Is it possible to use external sources also for this mechanic?
I'm pretty new to the game and I found this mechanic confusing because it looks like that one rod could be exploited to craft another fully charged rod =)
Am I right? What did I missed in the rules?
Thanks in advance!
Now my question is: Is it possibile to use a charged rod as a spell source?
YES,
If yes what is going to be consumed, a charge or the whole rod?
This is going into the RAW side of it but for every day you are enchanting, you must use/cast the appropriate spells to be put into the item. So, in the case of a 50 charge rod, you have to use/cast 50 of the appropriate spell to charge it. Using a rod to do this is pretty useless since your using a rod to make a rod. If you want some references, please refer to http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Creating-Rods or Pathfinders Players Guide, magic items section, rods.
Shogahin
So using a rod to make another rod it's kinda moving the charges from one to another?
I've got a different answer on the italian pathfinder forum, here I've been told that using a rod as a spell source consumes one charge to make a fully charged new rod.
I would say no in my game, but it is probably correct according to a very strict reading of RAW.
Sarrah wrote: I would say no in my game, but it is probably correct according to a very strict reading of RAW. Ok I will talk to my GM then, to specifically define this mechanic =)
Thanks
Sarrah wrote: I would say no in my game, but it is probably correct according to a very strict reading of RAW. When it comes to magic item creation in a home game, RAW is something you use as a starting point, but you leave behind very quickly.
LazarX wrote: Sarrah wrote: I would say no in my game, but it is probably correct according to a very strict reading of RAW. When it comes to magic item creation in a home game, RAW is something you use as a starting point, but you leave behind very quickly. Really? I always stay strictly RAW when it comes to item creation. Because by strict RAW the GM has to approve new item creations AND adjust price as he sees fit. He does have guidelines he should follow but no ultimate requirement. The only way to steer away from RAW is by sticking strictly to the guidelines and that can sometimes lead to absurd results :D
Quote: Because by strict RAW the GM has to approve... No, a DM can disallow anything they think will break the game. They don't even have to allow crafting of any sort (in fact pathfinder society does not allow crafting). Always check with your DM, the rules are a guideline.
CRB p549 wrote: Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. Yes, you can supply the spell via a magic item that casts the spell.
Follow the rules for casting a spell from an item (burns a charge, use per day, whatever).
Finally, you only need to expend one spell per day. You do not need to expend 50 spells.
Maxiride wrote: Now my question is: Is it possibile to use a charged rod as a spell source? If yes what is going to be consumed, a charge or the whole rod? In case of failure the rod is destroyed or just a charge is consumed? You can use one charge per day from another rod as a spell source. Not one charge total, nor 50 total, but one per day. If it takes three days to make the new item, then you use three charges.
Maxiride wrote: Furthermore "In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
Is it possible to use external sources also for this mechanic?
The example explicitly listed is a spell from a scroll.
Maxiride wrote: I'm pretty new to the game and I found this mechanic confusing because it looks like that one rod could be exploited to craft another fully charged rod =)
Am I right? What did I missed in the rules?
Thanks in advance!
Rods are expensive, so probably need more than one day to make. Wands are much cheaper, and you can easily make a new 1st level one using only a single charge from another wand.
Maxiride wrote: So using a rod to make another rod it's kinda moving the charges from one to another? No.
Maxiride wrote: I've got a different answer on the italian pathfinder forum, here I've been told that using a rod as a spell source consumes one charge to make a fully charged new rod. No.
The way you speak, and the mention of the Italian forum, makes me think you do not mean rods but rather wands. Rods do not always have charges, while wands always start with 50. Rods often do multiple things, wands only cast a single spell.
/cevah
I am a bit confused because I don't think any rods can be used to satisfy spell requirements, because if it can cast a specific spell, it's usually a wand or staff, not a rod.
Quote: I am a bit confused because I don't think any rods can be used to satisfy spell requirements, because if it can cast a specific spell, it's usually a wand or staff, not a rod. You are thinking metamagical rods, but there are rods with spells-trigger on them. Although only rod of shadows and rod of thunder comes to mind.
He probably meant staves and wands anyway. As rods dont normally have charges.
No, I was not thinking metamagic rods. I was thinking rods in general. 3E's policy is that rods produce effects which are not standard spell effects, items which cast a single spell are wands, items which cast several spells are staves.
Shoga wrote: For every day you are enchanting, you must use/cast the appropriate spells to be put into the item. So, in the case of a 50 charge rod, you have to use/cast 50 of the appropriate spell to charge it.
Only if the rod takes 50 days to create. More typically a rod will cost only a few thousand and hence use "a few" charges.
Also, unless the rod is a spell trigger item (like a wand), you are able to substitute a +5 to the spellcraft DC and you don't need access to any of the spells.
I don't see any indication that any rod is actually a spell trigger item. The Rod of Shadows, for example, just says that "[t]hree times per day, the wielder can use it to create a deeper darkness effect (caster level 8th)." (The Rod of Thunder is similar.) This is more typical of a command-activated item (e.g. a wondrous item). I'd suggest that the rules as written are unclear as to what type of item this is, and furthermore that this implies command-word. "[If] no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it."
I'd certainly rule it that way at my table.
Rylar wrote: Quote: Because by strict RAW the GM has to approve... No, a DM can disallow anything they think will break the game. They don't even have to allow crafting of any sort (in fact pathfinder society does not allow crafting). Always check with your DM, the rules are a guideline. LOL! Fair enough. What I meant with the entire sentence was in fact the exact thing you wrote. I should have worded it differently but I doubt a lot of people actually thought that the sentence meant that a GM was required to approve item creations, but rather that they had the ultimate power to decide whether or not to allow it.
Lifat wrote: LazarX wrote: Sarrah wrote: I would say no in my game, but it is probably correct according to a very strict reading of RAW. When it comes to magic item creation in a home game, RAW is something you use as a starting point, but you leave behind very quickly. Really? I always stay strictly RAW when it comes to item creation. Because by strict RAW the GM has to approve new item creations AND adjust price as he sees fit. He does have guidelines he should follow but no ultimate requirement. The only way to steer away from RAW is by sticking strictly to the guidelines and that can sometimes lead to absurd results :D You're a perfect example of a player who'd need a major adjustment before they're allowed anywhere near a home game of mine. My philosophy is that the rules serve the game, not the other way around. GM's are highly encouraged to add, modify, or even ignore RAW as they see fit. Ultimately the players are the judge of the end result.
Lifat wrote: Rylar wrote: Quote: Because by strict RAW the GM has to approve... No, a DM can disallow anything they think will break the game. They don't even have to allow crafting of any sort (in fact pathfinder society does not allow crafting). Always check with your DM, the rules are a guideline. LOL! Fair enough. What I meant with the entire sentence was in fact the exact thing you wrote. I should have worded it differently but I doubt a lot of people actually thought that the sentence meant that a GM was required to approve item creations, but rather that they had the ultimate power to decide whether or not to allow it. We've seen enough people actually try to make that claim. Not knowing you from Adam, I can't take a reasoned stance for granted in this venue. There are players who think that RAW is something to beat, collar, or otherwise harass their GMs with, especially with their "creative" bending of RAW text.
Easy guys, he was misunderstood - Lifat wrote: Because by strict RAW the GM has to approve... ... meaning the GM, by RAW, must be consulted and agree to approve an item. And that if you only use the pricing guidelines, you're breaking RAW.
Edit: I think everything's been answered, but since I'm here...
OP wrote: Now my question is: Is it possibile to use a charged rod as a spell source? If yes what is going to be consumed, a charge or the whole rod? In case of failure the rod is destroyed or just a charge is consumed? If the Rod creates a spell effect, and not an effect that is merely similar to the spell, Yes. Whatever activation is required for the Rod to generate the spell will have to be done, whether charges, uses per day, etc.
OP wrote: Furthermore "In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
Is it possible to use external sources also for this mechanic?
Quite simply, Yes.
OP wrote: I'm pretty new to the game and I found this mechanic confusing because it looks like that one rod could be exploited to craft another fully charged rod =) This makes me think you mean Wands, not Rods, but yes. You could use scrolls to create a wand, then use a wand to create multiple more wands. A rod, charged or not, that creates a spell effect can be used in item creation. The spell access is a limiting factor (to prevent creation of things you have no access to), far more than it is a cost of creation.
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