So, I've seen this crop up on the advice boards a few times, and I just want to find out if me pimp-slapping people down for trying it at my table is legitimate.
The scenario is this: Someone readies their action to follow a caster around and attack them whenever they begin to cast a spell. This could also be flavored to be they charge said caster whenever he starts casting.
The reason I slap this down is that it breaks acting in turn and also makes various feats, such as the step-up line irrelevant. Mostly it is flat-out banned because I feel it is cheap for casters since there is literally no defense against it beyond flying/borrowing/being unreachable or unattackable.
So, I've seen this crop up on the advice boards a few times, and I just want to find out if me pimp-slapping people down for trying it at my table is legitimate.
The scenario is this: Someone readies their action to follow a caster around and attack them whenever they begin to cast a spell. This could also be flavored to be they charge said caster whenever he starts casting.The reason I slap this down is that it breaks acting in turn and also makes various feats, such as the step-up line irrelevant. Mostly it is flat-out banned because I feel it is cheap for casters since there is literally no defense against it beyond flying/borrowing/being unreachable or unattackable.
That is not legal because a charge is a full round action and you can only ready a single standard, move, swift or free action. There is simply no way by the rules to both move and attack as part of a readied action. You can only do one or the other.
Edit: They can move up to the caster and then ready an action to attack if he casts but that doesn't stop him from moving away before casting.
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I believe there is a specific feat for being able to ready a charge action. Rhino charge or something like that.
EDIT: Rhino Charge
What Oladon said. If you can make ranged attacks the best you can do is use your move action to follow and ready attacks when they are casting, which is still cheap against the casters but with as much "Casters rule/Martials drool" that goes around I'd say that its legitimate enough to not ban the tactic.
What Oladon said. If you can make ranged attacks the best you can do is use your move action to follow and ready attacks when they are casting, which is still cheap against the casters but with as much "Casters rule/Martials drool" that goes around I'd say that its legitimate enough to not ban the tactic.
I'd give the player that it is legitimate to follow him and take the AOO when he casts, BUT with the stipulation that he follows him regardless of where the caster goes, simply to add another layer of prohibition to the tactic.
Possible consequences would include drawing multiple AOOs from the caster's allies, walking off a ship, walking into environmental hazards, etc.
What Oladon said. If you can make ranged attacks the best you can do is use your move action to follow and ready attacks when they are casting, which is still cheap against the casters but with as much "Casters rule/Martials drool" that goes around I'd say that its legitimate enough to not ban the tactic.I'd give the player that it is legitimate to follow him and take the AOO when he casts, BUT with the stipulation that he follows him regardless of where the caster goes, simply to add another layer of prohibition to the tactic.
Possible consequences would include drawing multiple AOOs from the caster's allies, walking off a ship, walking into environmental hazards, etc.
Ugh. Do not do this.
The characters your players are portraying aren't stupid, nor does "I ready an action to move when he does" mean they're suddenly mindless automatons. Don't take away your players' freedom to make decisions. That's not how the rules work, nor is it conducive to a fun time for anyone.
I agree. Although in any case if you're trying to disrupt casters you're more likely to move during your turn and ready a ranged attack when the mage is casting a spell.
If you're going melee with a caster, Step Up and AOOs will mess him up enough, disregarding that if a wizard is in melee range he's already dead.
What Oladon said. If you can make ranged attacks the best you can do is use your move action to follow and ready attacks when they are casting, which is still cheap against the casters but with as much "Casters rule/Martials drool" that goes around I'd say that its legitimate enough to not ban the tactic.I'd give the player that it is legitimate to follow him and take the AOO when he casts, BUT with the stipulation that he follows him regardless of where the caster goes, simply to add another layer of prohibition to the tactic.
Possible consequences would include drawing multiple AOOs from the caster's allies, walking off a ship, walking into environmental hazards, etc.
Ugh. Do not do this.
The characters your players are portraying aren't stupid, nor does "I ready an action to move when he does" mean they're suddenly mindless automatons. Don't take away your players' freedom to make decisions. That's not how the rules work, nor is it conducive to a fun time for anyone.
I agree. Although in any case if you're trying to disrupt casters you're more likely to move during your turn and ready a ranged attack when the mage is casting a spell.
If you're going melee with a caster, Step Up and AOOs will mess him up enough, disregarding that if a wizard is in melee range he's already dead.
The reason I'd do that is because if they are smart enough to think to do it then so are the enemies. I never pit my PCs up against stupid enemies. This all said the most common tactic for defeating a caster is not going to be "follow him around and take an AOO when he casts" but instead, "I CHARGE AND GRAPPLE! HAVE AT YOU, CASTER!"
I actually don't have a problem with the prepare a ranged attack option or the feat that lets you charge as a readied standard, since that is not trying to "out smart" the system.
Then again, I think the backlash of chasing the caster into a secluded part of the battlefield will be a bad enough decision when the rest of his not currently threatened allies charge the now completely out of position PC.
Caster: "Halp!"
Melee monster 1: "Free experience!"
Melee Monster 2: "I know, right?"
Gish Monster 1: "The coup de grace is strong with this one! Go Go Ghoul Touch!"
PC: "All my bad decisions!"
Possible consequences would include drawing multiple AOOs from the caster's allies, walking off a ship, walking into environmental hazards, etc.
As others have said. Don't do this.
The 'correct' readied action here is "I ready a move action after the caster moves". I can then use the move action to chase him, run in circle, or do any other move action I want. Choosing to chase him may result in me taking AoO's etc if the path I choose to move to results in me moving past enemies, but it also may not - multiple paths to the casters new location are possible - some less dangerous than others - and depending on movement speed of caster and chaser may leave the chaser behind if he wants to avoid threats.
The standard tactic for the caster in the above scenario is to then cast defensively so that no AoO is generated.
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A better question:
"I ready to move up so that it provokes if he casts."
Legal or Not?
Or, could the caster retroactively decide afterward to cast defensively?
It sets up this order of events:
- Caster declares an action to cast
- Readied action triggers, fighter moves
- Caster begins casting
The caster can make choices within his declared action as normal, such as which version of the spell to cast, provided they don't invalidate the consequence that has already happened. Casting defensively doesn't create any problem with the readied action, so I think that would be OK. The GM could allow the fighter to ready "if he casts other than defensively" and I believe that would interrupt the caster after he made the choice not to cast defensively.
A better question:
"I ready to move up so that it provokes if he casts."
Legal or Not?
Or, could the caster retroactively decide afterward to cast defensively?
Yes its legal but since the move is a reaction to the move the casting happens afterwards so the caster can start casting defensively.
Wouldn't the spell and everything with if they're casting defensively already be selected? You're interrupting an action that is about to happen, just like if I was going to move out of a square or retrieve a specific item. I can't just change how I exited the threatened square or which item I get on the action that provoked the AoO after something else happened.
You can ready an attack against someone making an attack on you, so once they start to swing, you trigger and hit then 5 ft step away. They are doomed to still swing, and cannot move close to you until this action is resolved.
Can someone really tell when someone is about to cast defensively? Maybe you can, but I'm honestly curious. I figure you say if they start to do magic stuff, that you're going to go move right next to them, and chances are, they're not casting defensively, and you're about to ruin their day. If they did for some reason to cast defensively, then you would just need to enjoy the magic show.
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Wouldn't the spell and everything with if they're casting defensively already be selected?
Several choices within the action of casting a spell are not made when the caster begins casting, for example the target.
You're interrupting an action that is about to happen, just like if I was going to move out of a square or retrieve a specific item. I can't just change how I exited the threatened square or which item I get on the action that provoked the AoO after something else happened.
You can ready an attack against someone making an attack on you, so once they start to swing, you trigger and hit then 5 ft step away. They are doomed to still swing, and cannot move close to you until this action is resolved.
They have chosen to attack and take all consequences of that choice. The readied action goes off and the opponent has spent (at least) a standard action. However, they have not started the attack and can make any choices available to them in the course of doing it, such as choosing any or no target for the attack, or taking a free or swift action.
Anything in the rules that can help me understand this process? Also, you're saying whenever a caster provokes when casting and does get hit, they can simply change what they intended to be a level 0 spell so they don't risk wasting their spell that would most likely fail? They can metagame the damage and figure if their fireballs % of success on a D20 to the DC they need to make? This doesn't seem correct.
So when I choose to do a CMB that will provoke, could I just change it to a disarm from a sunder just because I triggers an attack that provokes, but not yet chose a target or specific action that provokes, but rather I just say "I do a CMB that will provoke" and wait until the GM tells me if something happened? "I choose to use a spell which could provoke" then wait until things are resolved to do specifics?
The spell is already locked in is what you're saying, but further modifications can occur? Casting defensively and normal casting seem to me at least to be two different things you should already have selected before performing the action. I don't spell cast, so I'm not too familiar with what exactly happens.
What about:
You are standing 25ft from evil caster man
You ready a move action if he casts a spell
You move up to him
Spell now provokes an AoO?
What about:
You are standing 25ft from evil caster man
You ready a move action if he casts a spell
You move up to him
Spell now provokes an AoO?
Depends. If casting a spell triggers the readied action then no, because what would trigger the AOO already occurred in order to trigger something else. If "starting" to cast triggers the readied action and the spell was not cast defensively then yes.
Personally I think the latter is more likely because I work by Magic the Gathering logic (killing the source of the effect does not negate the effect or anything it triggered and triggers happen when the effect first goes on the stack.) There is a logic to the fact that magic is a relative long process so its continuation should trigger an AOO in this situation, but I think that only one trigger should go off from the same source if the triggered actions are sequential.