Ladies and Gentlemen,
I will be starting Wrath of the Righteous later this year my players know is coming. They like to prepare a strong party and they map out there characters ahead of time.
One of them came across Beyond Morality I haven't seen all the monsters, nor am I a walking pathfinder encyclopedia.
I do know there are a lot of alignment based spells, and weapons. Should this feet be allowed? I feel it could unbalance the AP.
Can I get a little help, insight, thoughts?
Again I have not completely delved into the AP.
It depends on how you want the game to be played. Portions of the AP take place in territory that is absolutely hostile to characters of Lawful or Good alignment. These penalties would be completely circumvented by Beyond Morality, and players could also use weapons and gear designed to be used by people of specific alignments with no penalties.
Granted the Planar Adaptation spell would get rid of the worst of these problems, and if the players redeem the Corruption Forge in book 2-3 they will be able to use any gear they come across anyway, but Beyond Morality is definitely a powerful feat. It lets your players roleplay any alignment they want at any time, and take any action they want at any time without fear of repercussion. Paladins must still abide by their code, so of course it's not as powerful for them, but anyone else can just do whatever they want and never have a problem with it.
If you don't mind that fact, then keep it around. If you have a problem with that style of play then I'd suggest talking to your players about disallowing that feat.
My power player, had brought this up his style is, I will shape my role playing to become all powerful. All of his characters excel and 90% of the game, I am just worried that him having no "restrictions" on his actions will do a few things to the game. It could negate the good Vs. evil aspect, and it could pull him way past my role player and my two let just have a good time guys.
If one of the others found this I wouldn't be so worried, as my biggest challenge is keeping him from running away with the game(and letting him have fun, I hate saying NO). He means well but, has a tenancy to overshadow all other players at the table. Unless I'm on his side of the wall, then we team up to power up the whole group. I'm worried about him running off on his own, with out a balance.
I want them all to have fun and be a team instead of go Crusader cleric smite all and win for us while we sit around twiddling our thumbs.
Thanks for the input I'll give it some more thought.
i don't allow it myself, i'm not a fan
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I'm going to go ahead and say this: in a mythic game, "Beyond Morality" will be the least of your powergaming problems. If you don't want things to get totally out of wack you will need to require your powergamer to tone things down. A character who knows how the mythic rules work can make monsterous characters if he tries.
I suggest that you actually make your powergamer work for you and have him tell you what the most powerful ability combinations are so you can nerf/ban them in advance. Sometimes powergamers feel that they *have* to pick the best options if they are available, but won't feel like they're nerfing themselves if those powers are banned in the first place.
In addition to what Matrix Dragon says, you might want to have a tighter reign on the mythic power in the first place... and here, too, you can have your power-player work for you.
Get him to find and wriggle out excellent lone powers and extreme combinations. Then... apply the appropriate thing to your players when they mythic. In other words, treat the mythic rules as a form of GM-fiated role-play-generated templates, where their powers and abilities are created and granted by role play, thus, the powers are awarded to people based on their characters rather than desires. This allows you to balance things relatively well.
This might not be popular, however, and you need to go over this option with your players first, explaining your reasoning (to make a better story/ensure that the party is generally potent, but that they don't accidentally go too far astray from the game).
Bear in mind, the choices/builds crafted this way shouldn't be artificially restrictive, (i.e. "here, 6 CHA wizard, you get the the Display of Charisma... oh, you have no charisma skills, oh well you're the party face now" is the wrong way to handle this sort of thing), but rather they should be built out of the character's actions and styles.
Thus, if a character favors a particular weapon, you might reward them with legendary item ability on that weapon (or armor or amulet or whatever), or someone that takes the Leadership feat (and proceeds to donate much of their resources/wealth into maintaining/improving his followers and cohort) might receive the Divine Source abilities, while the character that goes out of their way to be able to handle anything gets the Ultimate Versatility ability. Someone running out of mythic power all the time? Extra mythic power! And so on.
In general, I'd recommend rewarding people for role playing their characters - even the two "let's just have fun guys" can be rewarded in this way (if their characters are mostly going along with whatever, but then brutally slaughter, and then go back to being blank slates, you can always give them the Beyond Morality ability, for example), not arbitrarily limit it... but at the same time, this allows you to keep their powers (and your players, to an extent) on-track for the game. Use the powerful combinations that work in theme with the characters.
You don't have to explain all of your choices, but a few might also help (ex: "You remember that one time you did <this>, and that other time you did <that>? Yeah, you're character has gone this way, and earned this kind of power.").
THAT SAID: this is only in a group that would trust your judgement, and won't hold resentment over some area of their character growth. That's... a really hard thing to judge, so talk before hand.
Anyway, I hope that helps!
Matrix Dragon I know that's on the low end of my worries list but, this is the type of guy who can 100% within the rules start in full plate, Because it "fits his character" I have unfortunately said NO, I hate that in Pathfinder, As his AC at 1st level would have required i hit with a 19 or 20. I'll find a way to make him work for me.
Tacticslion that is a novel idea... I'm not sure if I like controlling their Mythic fates.... but, I'll give it some thought
Thanks for the input guys.
If your primary worry regarding this power is that you are afraid it will take away from the good/evil aspect of the game, then I suggest requiring all of your players build characters with a good alignment, and ban Beyond morality and Worldwound Walker. Those two abilities allow good characters to act like non-good characters, and it gives them immunity to pretty much any alignment-based restriction in the game.
Your players will be traveling to the Abyss where the very nature of the plane hurts them, and facing of against creatures that have Smite Good and other alignment based abilities. The assumption is that the party will be susceptible to these things, and removing them as a threat entirely is a good way to decrease the difficulty of every encounter they will face. Sure Planar Adaptation will get rid of some of that, but that's a resource that must be spent on a regular basis. Beyond Morality is something a character takes once and never has to worry about any alignment-based consequences from then on (Paladins excluded, because of their code of conduct).
Every one of my players took this ability specifically in anticipation of having to travel to the Abyss in book 4. They knew it was coming, so when they gained another feat they all took it. No single ability that everyone has access to should neutralize a campaign-wide threat like that.
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It also doesn't remove the RP aspects of alignment. The PC may act however he wishes and it won't effect powers used on him, but it will affect how people see him and react to him. In parts of this AP that is as important as anything else.
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It also doesn't remove the RP aspects of alignment. The PC may act however he wishes and it won't effect powers used on him, but it will affect how people see him and react to him. In parts of this AP that is as important as anything else.
This is how I play it.
You don't lose your old alignment, you just find yourself where the universe doesn't mechanically care what alignment you are, just choose the one that immediately suits you. There are tons of other RPGs without alignment systems, but everyone doesn't go and play homicidal maniacs and claim they are peace loving champions of society.
A good character remains a good character and keeps the same values. For non-divine classes, it will be a matter of public perception (you do crap, expect crap). But for divine classes, you better watch yourself as the boss is always keeping an eye on you. A LG god watching his paladin sacrificing babies will not take it well. Most good deities will not grant evil domain spells in any case. Same goes for evil deities granting "goodie two-shoe" spells.
Matrix Dragon I know that's on the low end of my worries list but, this is the type of guy who can 100% within the rules start in full plate, Because it "fits his character" I have unfortunately said NO, I hate that in Pathfinder, As his AC at 1st level would have required i hit with a 19 or 20. I'll find a way to make him work for me.
Tacticslion that is a novel idea... I'm not sure if I like controlling their Mythic fates.... but, I'll give it some thought
Thanks for the input guys.
Not a problem! Most of my ideas are there for the taking if you want, but no pressure at all, if you don't. :D
One other thought is, if you don't want to decide them yourself, craft a short-list of options that are generated each time a new tier is achieved based on their role-play elements.
How?
1) Get your power gamer to sift through the current options and find those things that synergize well. Make sure he lists multiple options. This does somewhat allow him to "choose" a list of potentials for himself, but you can actually alleviate this somewhat by either giving the responsibility for his potentials to the other players, or by doing it yourself from these very forums, thus eliminating bias; I'd actually recommend the latter, now that I think about it.
2) Use this list as a basis to compile a new (shorter) list based on peoples' role-play (whatever it is, good or bad), consistently seeking things that would make good reward options based on their behavior, traits, or displayed talents or skills, but that also don't break your game for your style of play.
3) When they achieve a new mythic tier, present a short-list of options for them to choose from. This allows you to have some amount of control, while also allowing them to choose their own abilities.
In this way, they still control their own characters, but you help them focus on builds that you understand very well, due to having them more-or-less laid out in front of you ahead of time: no nasty surprises, and you can veto certain things based on in-character conduct and styles, or for gameplay issues.
Again, this is one idea - not a "you should do this" suggestion, but a "here's one way to not just ban something outright, but also not to let things get too crazy for you to handle" suggestion. :)
Beyond Morality is being used in my Wrath campaign for my players. We've had a few issues with failed throws that have altered a few things in a way that makes the ability very useful.
And here's a good spoiler:
** spoiler omitted **
But that's basically bypassing a very interesting inter-party roleplay opportunity, and possible redemption scenario. It also makes less sense for them to stay with the party with that kind of shift, as depending on their law/chaos alignment they may feel more comfortable siding with the demons, or at least against the party.
Basically, it's circumventing otherwise very real and dangerous challenges the module puts in front of the party with a single feat, and I don't like that, regardless of the reason.
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Of an interesting note, the party cleric took Beyond Morality.
I'm waiting for him to try to use the Talisman of Pure Good and get an error on it. :P
He wouldn't. He has no alignment and his alignment counts as the best possible result for anything that requires it. A Talisman of Pure Good could be used by a character that was previously Chaotic Evil and took Beyond Morality.
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You have no alignment. You can become a member of any class, even one with an alignment requirement, and can never lose your membership because of a change in alignment. If you violate the code of ethics of any of your classes, you might still lose access to certain features of such classes, subject to GM discretion. Attempts to detect your alignment don't return any results. If a class restricts you from casting spells with an alignment descriptor, you can cast such spells without restrictions or repercussions. If you're the target of a spell or effect that is based on alignment, you're treated as the most favorable alignment when determining the spell's effect on you. Any effects that alter alignment have no effect on you. If you lose this effect, you revert to your previous alignment.
A good divine spellcaster who possesses this item can cause a flaming crack to open at the feet of an evil divine spellcaster who is up to 100 feet away. The intended victim is swallowed up forever and sent hurtling to the center of the earth. The wielder of the talisman must be good, and if he is not exceptionally pure in thought and deed, the evil character gains a DC 19 Reflex saving throw to leap away from the crack. Obviously, the target must be standing on solid ground for this item to function.
A talisman of pure good has 6 charges. If a neutral (LN, N, CN) divine spellcaster touches one of these stones, he takes 6d6 points of damage per round of contact. If an evil divine spellcaster touches one, he takes 8d6 points of damage per round of contact. All other characters are unaffected by the device.
Nothing in Beyond Morality states you can choose to be the best alignment for an object, and the Talisman specifically requires a Good divine spellcaster.
Beyond Morality would just stop a previously evil divine spellcaster from taking the worst of the effects since he doesn't have an Alignment to check against.
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Nothing in Beyond Morality states you can choose to be the best alignment for an object, and the Talisman specifically requires a Good divine spellcaster.
If you're the target of a spell or effect that is based on alignment, you're treated as the most favorable alignment when determining the spell's effect on you.
I guess that depends on if you consider using an item to be part of its effect. I do think it's silly that if you're a Good character who took Beyond Morality so that blasphemy would stop hurting so much, that you can't use a talisman of pure good.
(As opposed to an Evil character who takes it because they truly believe their Good ends justify their Evil means. Or a Neutral character who wants to underline being None of the Above.)But I'll also point out nothing in Beyond Morality allows you to choose anything. You're simply treated as most favorable. I'm not sure how often that might come up, but it is something to note. (Maybe you rather would be banished back to the material plane by a demon's blasphemy, for instance, rather than be left alone without the rest of the party.)