Hey folks, putting up this thread to clear up some rules that my GM and I are having a different time sorting out.
This is the situation. I have a 6th level bipedal Eidolon that has four arms, each with claws.
Now, we are disagreement over the following questions.
1. Rend. I read the rules like this: I buy the Rend Evolution once and it affects all of my claw attacks. He suggested the Rend Evolution must be bought seperately for each set of claws and only works when both claw attacks from one set of claws hits.
Also, if my interpretation of the rules should be right, how often can rend trigger? Once per round? Once per enemy? Or once per every two hits?
2. Same argument over the Improved Damage and Energy Attacks Evolutions. Do I have to buy them seperately for each set of arms? Or do I buy them once and they affect each of my claw attacks?
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1. Rend. I read the rules like this: I buy the Rend Evolution once and it affects all of my claw attacks. He suggested the Rend Evolution must be bought seperately for each set of claws and only works when both claw attacks from one set of claws hits.
Also, if my interpretation of the rules should be right, how often can rend trigger? Once per round? Once per enemy? Or once per every two hits?
Well, according to the ability's rules...
Whenever the eidolon makes two successful claw attacks against the same target in 1 round
On any round in which you succeed with 2 claw attacks you can Rend. You do not get to Rend more than once. In theory you could miss all but one of your attacks and then hit on an AoO and still Rend. It is essentially extra damage you get for hitting twice.
2. Same argument over the Improved Damage and Energy Attacks Evolutions. Do I have to buy them seperately for each set of arms? Or do I buy them once and they affect each of my claw attacks?
According to Energy Attacks...
All of the eidolon’s natural attacks deal 1d6 points of energy damage of the chosen type on a successful hit.
As for Improved Damage, that one is a little more slippery. My belief is that it must be purchased for each attack evolution you want it to apply to. You can improve one set of claws, and then pay again to improve another.
As for Improved Damage, that one is a little more slippery. My belief is that it must be purchased for each attack evolution you want it to apply to. You can improve one set of claws, and then pay again to improve another.
Well the rules for Improved Damage read like this: Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step.
I don`t want to be unreasonable here, the Eidolon is clearly very powerful and I am willing to concede the Improved Damage argument to the GM simply to put his mind at ease, but I would like to know if there is any official ruling on it, just to make sure I do it right in the future.
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I would like to know if there is any official ruling on it, just to make sure I do it right in the future.
I don't think it's been addressed in any FAQ. I will point out that for 1 point of evolution, being able to upgrade entire banks of attacks is more than a little good. Also, there is the inconsistent language.
One of the eidolon’s natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different natural attack. Source: Advanced Player's Guide
It refers to both individual attacks, and attack forms. Since they start by referring to one attack, and then finish by saying you can buy it and apply it to one attack, I prefer to interpret it more conservatively.
The first sentence seems to me like flavour text. The last sentence is unclear about what is meant exactly. The sentence "Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step." is clear when it comes to rules and I see nothing in the rules text that contests that.
Only one rend, no matter how many claws you have.
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The first sentence seems to me like flavour text. The last sentence is unclear about what is meant exactly. The sentence "Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step." is clear when it comes to rules and I see nothing in the rules text that contests that.
The question, then, is: What constitutes an attack form? Is it the tagline Claw, Bite, Tail, etc...or is it the Evolution purchased? Clearly you prefer to blanket all Claw attacks as one form. I prefer to be more conservative because of the cost of the ability and the broad application. Increasing all claw attacks by ~50% is significantly better for 1 point than any other purchase at that tier.
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Increasing the die from 1d4 to 1d6 adds an average of 1 point of damage per attack that hits. (Yes, its a 40% increase in base damage).
No, it is not the most efficient. 2 points gets you +1d6(3.5 average) to all attacks. (a 140% increase for the claws). To put that in context: it is trivial for a low level eidolon to have a +4 strength bonus.
Using the above assumptions: the difference between 1d4+4(6.5) and 1d6+4(7.5). A 13% increase in average damage.
The only reason a 1 point increase in average damage can be made to appear as a large number (40% increase) is because the initial value is so low.
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The difference between a base damage of 1d4 vs 1d6 is significant.
Base(1d4)+Large(1d6)+AoMF<Impact>(1d8)
Base(1d6)+Large(1d8)+ AoMF<Impact>(2d6)The value of that Evolution should not be downplayed.
The percentage increase in damage from INA is even lower for an eidolon with the large size evolution. (The 2d6 number is a bite attack. Most eidolon's won't apply INA to bite as they only have one. A flat 2.5 average damage increase to one attack is a horrible deal. Spend 1 point to get 1.5 strength instead.)
What drives eidolon damage is number of attacks + strength, not base damage.
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The percentage increase in damage from INA is even lower for an eidolon with the large size evolution. (The 2d6 number is a bite attack. Most eidolon's won't apply INA to bite as they only have one. A flat 2.5 average damage increase to one attack is a horrible deal. Spend 1 point to get 1.5 strength instead.)
What drives eidolon damage is number of attacks + strength, not base damage.
The enhanced damage scales because your base damage scales. It scales with every extra claw you swing. Every other level you double the potential output. If your base damage starts at 1d6, then after two step increases you swing for 2d6. Natural Attack damage is not capped for Eidolons at "Huge". Eidolons can wear equipment and use items, which means they can and will get upgrades past what the Evolutions offer. There are charts that show the progression if you haven't seen them.
So, the difference between 6 claw attacks at 1d8+Bonus and 2d6+Bonus is 6x[(2+12)/2] - 6x[(1+8)/2] = 42-27 = 15 per round. A 44.444% increase in average weapon damage before critical hits are incorporated.
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Most eidolon's won't apply INA to bite as they only have one.If you take the head evolution from ultimate magic:
Head (Ex): An eidolon grows an additional head. The eidolon does not gain any additional natural attacks for the additional head, but the additional head does allow the eidolon to take other evolutions that add an additional attack to a head (such as a bite, gore, or breath weapon). This evolution can be selected more than once.Assuming the eidolon has two heads now. You took Bite for the first head.
Can you now take Bite for the second head? Do they add 1.5 times strength to their damage?
Extra heads are a very expensive method of picking up extra attacks. There is a good reason most eidolons have so many arms instead of being built like a hydra.
If an eidolon was built like a hydra, INA would apply to all bite attacks. Only when building a hydra does applying INA to bites become more efficient than increasing the strength bonus multiplier on a bite.
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The percentage increase in damage from INA is even lower for an eidolon with the large size evolution. (The 2d6 number is a bite attack. Most eidolon's won't apply INA to bite as they only have one. A flat 2.5 average damage increase to one attack is a horrible deal. Spend 1 point to get 1.5 strength instead.)
What drives eidolon damage is number of attacks + strength, not base damage.
The enhanced damage scales because your base damage scales. It scales with every extra claw you swing. Every other level you double the potential output. If your base damage starts at 1d6, then after two step increases you swing for 2d6. Natural Attack damage is not capped for Eidolons at "Huge". Eidolons can wear equipment and use items, which means they can and will get upgrades past what the Evolutions offer. There are charts that show the progression if you haven't seen them.
So, the difference between 6 claw attacks at 1d8+Bonus and 2d6+Bonus is 6x[(2+12)/2] - 6x[(1+8)/2] = 42-27 = 15 per round. A 44.444% increase in average weapon damage before critical hits are incorporated.
To base damage. Assuming either investments from multiple sources to increase base damage dice or a very large investment in evolution points.
But, again, base damage is the least effective means of raising eidolon damage. To get 2d6 with claws you need to raise the eidolons attacks by three size categories.
Shortest path = INA + Large Size + Amulet at 5th level
your attacks: 4 claws at 2d6+8 = 60 dmg
Attacks without INA: 4 claws at 1d8+8 = 50
a 20% increase. Even with 2d6 base damage, strength contributes far more to DPR.
Now, a smart pleyer goes
energy attack + large +2 str belt: 2d6+10 = 78, and he hits more often.
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For comparison: lets look at two evolutions that modify attacks.
One of the eidolon’s natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different natural attack
Improved Damage selects one attack form
One of an eidolon’s attacks is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The eidolon’s reach with that attack increases by 5 feet.
Reach picks one attack.
One very clearly would be applied to a single attack.
The other applies to all attacks of a given form.
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But, again, base damage is the least effective means of raising eidolon damage. To get 2d6 with claws you need to raise the eidolons attacks by three size categories.
I'm not discussing the best way to optimize your damage, and that's not the purpose of this thread.(You can check the first post if you need a refresher.) Maximizing the damage bonus and opportunities to apply that bonus is the best way for every character to deal damage, including blaster casters. You're having a one-sided argument about something that is not the point.
Shortest path = INA + Large Size + Amulet at 5th level
There's a slight glitch in your claim, of course.
The summoner must be at least 8th level before selecting this evolution.
your attacks: 4 claws at 2d6+8 = 60 dmg
Attacks without INA: 4 claws at 1d8+8 = 50a 20% increase. Even with 2d6 base damage, strength contributes far more to DPR.
Now, a smart pleyer goes
energy attack + large +2 str belt: 2d6+10 = 78, and he hits more often.
How does one hit more often? Both Eidolons have the same BAB, Large and can wear a Str Belt...Improved Damage does not apply an accuracy penalty. They both hit the same amount. Energy Damage adds 1d6, compare 1d8+1d6 vs 2d6. That difference is negligible, also the energy damage is not doubled on a critical hit. In terms of single contribution, the 1pt Evolution is almost exactly as effective as the 2pt Evolution, and it isn't susceptible to Energy Resistance. (Adjusting for criticals with +14 to hit(BAB6, +8 Str) vs AC24 or 55% accuracy; I ended up with an increase in damage amounting to 0.5 points. At 80% Accuracy the difference is 0.7 pts average damage per hit. This is a potential 2-3 pts per round.)
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Shortest path = INA + Large Size + Amulet at 5th levelThere's a slight glitch in your claim, of course.
The summoner must be at least 8th level before selecting this evolution.
Wonderful. I was going towards lowest possible level to weight the argument (that Improved Damage was too effiecient) in your favor.
I prefer to be more conservative because of the cost of the ability and the broad application. Increasing all claw attacks by ~50% is significantly better for 1 point than any other purchase at that tier.
At higher level, base damage is even an even lower percentage of total damage done. You were taking your numbers entirely out of context and then using them to justify restricting improved damage to a single attack.
A 1 point damage increase is only a large percentage increase because the base damage is so low.|
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@Artanthos I don't think we're having the same conversation here. Not once has anyone said that Improved Damage is the optimal way for DPS with an Eidolon. If you want to have that debate, open a new thread and see if anyone is interested. This discussion was about the cost/application of certain Evolutions. So far, all you have said is that an ability which costs more Evolution points does more damage, and that even more damage could be done with a high damage bonus.
If you'd care to try again in context of the topic at hand, I'm all ears. I've shown mathematically that Energy Attacks outperforms Improved Damage (Improved Natural Attack is a bestiary feat) by a fraction of a point. Improved Damage actually pulls out a head when you can hit for 3d6 vs 2d6+1d6 Energy. Because it scales, that 1pt Evolution is almost equivalent of, and eventually better than, a 2pt one.
@Rikkan Unarmed Strikes are light weapons. Natural Weapons seem to coincide with One-handed weapons, but I didn't locate a clarification on it. If you find one feel free to post it.
-Edit- Was interrupted and a partial reply went up by mistake.
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@Rikkan Unarmed Strikes are light weapons. Natural Weapons seem to coincide with One-handed weapons, but I didn't locate a clarification on it. If you find one feel free to post it.Pathfinder Design team:Natural attacks are light weapons
Awesome, thanks!