Halfway Through Sins of the Saviors


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


Ezren, Sajan, Amiri, and Merisiel just finished the Halls of Seduction. It was fantastic. Merisiel managed to use the Revelation Quill and Holy Candle twice thanks to the Shimmering Veils of Pride's When Permanently Closed power. It was also somewhat humorous to find imprisoned in the Iron Cages of Lust a Sacred Killer and a Cat. I'm of the opinion that the Sacred Killer was the cat's owner and that is how the ended up there together. Sadly, neither joined our party.

I noticed a couple of things tonight:

1. Magic Spyglass says add a die to a Perception check. Much like the Tome of Knowledge, playable on other characters. (I just noticed this since tonight was the first time I'd ever encounters the card.)

2. Harsk's bottom card examination power can have a whole lot of use, what with Revelation Quill and Wand of Treasure Finding. Throw Brodert Quink in there and you can easily get the bottom card to the top of a 7 card deck with Brodert and the Quill (not a bad name for a band either). Even without, the smaller the deck gets the more likely the Wand of Treasure Finding will encounter a boon on the bottom of the deck.

3. Merisiel should not have dropped the Crown of Charisma after last scenario. I don't usually look ahead too much, so we were in for a bit of a shock tonight, what with our all around d6 Charisma.

Can't wait for the last two scenarios, though thinking of waiting another month for deck 6 is already bringing me some sorrow.

Sovereign Court

This brings up something that my group and I don't seem to see as useful.

the Ranger ability to examine the bottom. You bring up a limited way to use it, but from the beginning it seems like it has little to no use. Are we just missing something?


Well, knowledge of a card is always useful. In my scenario last night, the villain was the bottom of a location deck. If I had known that (we don't have Harsk in that group), I would have hit that location more aggressively earlier. As it was, if we hadn't gotten to use Holy Candle twice we might not have won.

Early on, its possible Harsk might help others so much that he doesn't have a card in his hand to deal with the top card of his location, and he might already know what it was from the last turn. So he could at least examine the bottom card.

Or if Harsk gets stuck with a faceup barrier like collapsed ceiling, he can at least examine the bottom card.

Of if he sees the bottom card is a card you want higher up, have some evade a card at that location to reshuffle the deck.

And now, with Revelation Quill, there are some decent ways to get the bottom card to the top.

Granted, it might not seem super useful at first, but the frequency of use for lots of the powers varies.


How did you use Holy Candle twice?

Sovereign Court

There is an Adventure 5 location that, when closed, allows the closer to return all his/her buried cards to their deck.


Andrew K wrote:
There is an Adventure 5 location that, when closed, allows the closer to return all his/her buried cards to their deck.

That. We also got to use Revelation Quill twice since Merisiel had both buried by the time she closed that location.


O I C


Actually the wording of the closing of Shimmering Veils of Pride is a little ambiguous... although it seems we all interpreted it the same.

... On closing, you may put any of your buried cards back into your hand.

Brings some questions to mind

1) you may.... why wouldn't you? Even if you have to discard down because of it... it's better discard than buried.
2) put any .... seems to imply a limit, but then doesn't give one. Why not just say all?

So I'm worried there's something missing.


I assume it's because you don't have to put all and they were trying to get around people assuming that you had to do all or none.


That still brings up the question of: why wouldn't you want too?

There has not been an option to recover buried cards at this point, so why the vagueness?


Ironvein wrote:

That still brings up the question of: why wouldn't you want too?

There has not been an option to recover buried cards at this point, so why the vagueness?

Amiri may have buried a lot of "junk" cards and not want to get them all back, just the useful ones.

I played this like you could choose any amount of your buried cards. If it mean one, I feel it would have say "a buried card". If it mean all it would have said "all your buried cards."


Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Ironvein wrote:

That still brings up the question of: why wouldn't you want too?

There has not been an option to recover buried cards at this point, so why the vagueness?

Amiri may have buried a lot of "junk" cards and not want to get them all back, just the useful ones.

I played this like you could choose any amount of your buried cards. If it mean one, I feel it would have say "a buried card". If it mean all it would have said "all your buried cards."

Even if they are 'junk' cards... they still count as HP (or in Amiri's case more berserker fonder SINCE they are junk), you can just as easily discard down your hand to get rid of the 'junk' and still have it available if you suddenly need healing. That kind was important for instances where recharging is not necessarily a good idea, since there are cards that can pull specific cards from the discard pile; you may choose not to recharge just so you can use another card to recover it later. This specific case, there is no opportunity like that since there isn't cards that pull cards out of buried (other than this and resurrection). Resurrection is very specific on it's rule, this one is not and probably should be.

The ability to choose should be more important than simply because you don't want it. If you didn't want it, it should not have been in your deck/hand in the first place, since you can opt out beforehand.

This really wouldn't be a problem for me if there were more cards that pulled cards from bury or a more tangible reason than 'I don't want to'. Choices are supposed to have consequences, and this one gives you a choice equivalent to 'shooting yourself in the foot' because you felt like it.


I think that is the consequence. Think of this:

Universe A
Amirir is sitting there with Holy Candle, Emerald Codex, Revelation Quill, 3 Blessings of Lamashtu and 10 Leather Armors buried (or the equivalent since there aren't really 10). Since she is closing the location, she can't explore anymore. Before she "unburies" them, she's only 1 card below her hand size. She'll be able to use Holy Candle, Emerald Codex, and Revelation Quill, but the Blessings and Armors she's probably have to discard. She says, "Well, if I discard some of them Kyra (or insert other healer here) can come heal me and I'll have those blessings back in my deck. But I don't want 10 armors in my deck keeping me from getting to those blessings quickly enough. So I'll just choose to leave the armors buried."

She's made a choice. She'll have access to the more powerful cards more quickly, but like you said, she could have also picked up a lot more health or some more "rage" cards. Later she might die and think "If only I had more cards in my deck!" or she might need to make multiple Strength checks and will think "If only I had something I didn't care about burying!" But that will be the consequence of her choice.

Universe B
Just like Universe A above but Amiri unburies everything. Kyra healers her, but keeps healing back in mostly those Leather Armors. And later, when Amiri could really use a blessing, the next 4 cards in her deck are all Leather Armor in addition to the two in her hand. She fails a check for lack of blessings.

One way or another, the choice could have a serious consequence.

For the record, in our group Merisiel picked up everything. Also, I use the term "junk" in the most loving of tones. I only mean a card that someone isn't likely to be able to use. Obviously another character might find it useful or a character at a different point in the adventure path or a different situation.


Hmm, an overly extreme example... if you had that many cards buried though, you'd only have like 5 or so cards left period (my count deck size is about 20 right now). You'd still want most, if not all, those cards JUST to prevent dying. Or at least having them available to rebuild your deck (through healing) since some of the new monsters are attacking the deck directly now.

I see where you're going with this, but it just seems that in most cases; there isn't a good reason NOT to get all your cards back. The wording just bothers me, feels like that was some limit that somehow missed getting put on the card.

And for the record, the effect never came into play thus far (the closer didn't have anything buried at that point, sigh).

Just would like some official word, saying that this was indeed what they meant and it wasn't some kind of typo. For piece of mind really.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

It's intentional.

When he gets nothing but blessings in his deck, Sajan doesn't want all of his buried cards back.


Ironvein wrote:

Hmm, an overly extreme example... if you had that many cards buried though, you'd only have like 5 or so cards left period (my count deck size is about 20 right now). You'd still want most, if not all, those cards JUST to prevent dying. Or at least having them available to rebuild your deck (through healing) since some of the new monsters are attacking the deck directly now.

I see where you're going with this, but it just seems that in most cases; there isn't a good reason NOT to get all your cards back. The wording just bothers me, feels like that was some limit that somehow missed getting put on the card.

And for the record, the effect never came into play thus far (the closer didn't have anything buried at that point, sigh).

Just would like some official word, saying that this was indeed what they meant and it wasn't some kind of typo. For piece of mind really.

I think my wife (who plays Amiri) has easily buried 10+ cards, all via her rage power. She is quite good at acquiring cards and so will often bury them. (Though quite bad a rolling when being healed.) My example was a bit extreme though.


Mike Selinker wrote:

It's intentional.

When he gets nothing but blessings in his deck, Sajan doesn't want all of his buried cards back.

Thanks, haven't played Sajan yet to understand the reference; but I'll take it.

Sorry if I came off as combative; it's just the english language is so broken that things have to spelled out really well or stuff like this happens.

Quote of the day: 'I before E except after C..... WEIRD.'

Sovereign Court

Ironvein --

Sajan can play any number of his blessings as he wants from his hand during his own combat checks. Also, if he discards blessings in his combat checks, he can choose to recharge them instead (it makes for an awesome fight with Barl Breakbones when your hand is full of blessings!)


Ironvein wrote:

Hmm, an overly extreme example... if you had that many cards buried though, you'd only have like 5 or so cards left period (my count deck size is about 20 right now). You'd still want most, if not all, those cards JUST to prevent dying. Or at least having them available to rebuild your deck (through healing) since some of the new monsters are attacking the deck directly now.

I see where you're going with this, but it just seems that in most cases; there isn't a good reason NOT to get all your cards back. The wording just bothers me, feels like that was some limit that somehow missed getting put on the card.

And for the record, the effect never came into play thus far (the closer didn't have anything buried at that point, sigh).

Just would like some official word, saying that this was indeed what they meant and it wasn't some kind of typo. For piece of mind really.

This is not an overly extreme example. I as Kyra, picked up armor spells and items and through bad rolling and luck got all my Divine Trait cards discarded and had no way to activate my healing power and with no one to help I had to sit on a closed location so as not to die. And I only picked up like 8 junk cards. Just a horrible shuffle of my deck. Because of that if I or someone else doesn't want a card I immediately banish instead of trying to acquire. That was my last brush with death.


A simpler answer is what happened to Seelah. She had closed that Envy location that requires you to bury your hand, putting 2 weapons and a Burglar there. When she closed the location that gives you them back, there were only 2 locations left with neither one having a Barrier left. So why would I put that card back when I'd never want to draw it?

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