One of the first things my group noticed when we started playing Sins of the Saviors was how there were only two Feat rewards for the adventure, including the adventure completion reward. So, 2 out if 6. During that same time, there were 3 Loot rewards and one non-loot card reward.
I don't have my game in front of me, but this seems like a very small percentage of feat rewards. The group in general was disappointed, especially given certain characters who were working through a "feat tree" such as Ezren's Evoker bonus damage.
However, rather than ask for a change, I first wanted everyone's thoughts on this. Are we the only ones who feel that only 1 power feat and 1 card feat (no skill feat at all!) are too few for an adventure? Or does the presence of all the loot in the adventure make up for it?
Also, any thoughts on house rules that would allow a bit more flexibility? One of the players suggested allowing players to hold off on their third power feat until they get their role card, so they could get more of their deep build rewards. However, I'm not sure what this does to power balance or anything.
My guess is the timing on rewards throughout the entire adventure path was planned out with a specific balance in mind. So while one adventure may seem a bit sparse on the rewards, I'm sure the "big picture" requires that. My thought on house rules: Play the game beginning to end vanilla first. You may appreciate the way the designers planned things out. If you're still unhappy at that point, feel free to house to your heart's content.
My guess is the timing on rewards throughout the entire adventure path was planned out with a specific balance in mind. So while one adventure may seem a bit sparse on the rewards, I'm sure the "big picture" requires that. My thought on house rules: Play the game beginning to end vanilla first. You may appreciate the way the designers planned things out. If you're still unhappy at that point, feel free to house to your heart's content.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was figuring. But we have 3 different groups going at the moment, since we couldn't wait for the new adventures, so it's hard to just play one vanilla all the way through...
I think that there is a pretty good balance right now. I also think that since in A5 the challenges are really ramping up, that getting more loot, is actually better in a sense, because loot cards of a type are generally better than their non-loot counterparts. This allows you to replace a lot of your boons that you might not have had an opportunity to do so, yet. I know that in running groups of varying sizes, that it is pretty tough to banish poor boons and get to good ones when playing with 2 people. Just getting great boons is great for that group. However, in my group of 6, we would want the power, skill, and card feats, since we are banishing all of the poor quality cards.
I think that they is a lot happening with the balance of the game, because you have to consider that there can be groups of 1 or 6, and there can be groups that like boons better than character feats. I like the balance right now. It feels about right. I was hoping that the banes would have gotten a little tougher a little sooner, but for now, it is going well.
Its been stated that there would be 7 power feats through the entire adventure path. I'm assuming similiarly there will be 7 card feats total.
In order to fill out those feat trees you'd pretty much have to completely specialize, and even then, won't get to complete it until the path is pretty much complete.
I'm happy with the way it was done, it allows a lot of replayability with each individual character and can make several different Ezrens and Marisels play, to a large extent, differently.
However, the fact that there is so much room for growth with 5 card feats and 5 power feats on each character/role card remaining, makes me want a level 7/8/9 adventure path that much more. With as catering as Paizo and Lone Shark have been in meeting our needs thus far, I'm really hoping that is something that comes down the woodworks eventually.
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In order to fill out those feat trees you'd pretty much have to completely specialize, and even then, won't get to complete it until the path is pretty much complete.
We are deliberately giving you quite a few more options for feats than we intend for you to use. If we didn't, the feats you'd choose at the end wouldn't actually *be* choices—you'd just be forced to take whatever you hadn't already taken.
The extra choices also mean higher replay value—otherwise, everybody's Ezren would be exactly the same at the end of the adventure.
In order to fill out those feat trees you'd pretty much have to completely specialize, and even then, won't get to complete it until the path is pretty much complete.We are deliberately giving you quite a few more options for feats than we intend for you to use. If we didn't, the feats you'd choose at the end wouldn't actually *be* choices—you'd just be forced to take whatever you hadn't already taken.
The extra choices also mean higher replay value—otherwise, everybody's Ezren would be exactly the same at the end of the adventure.
Hey now Vic... you skipped my paragraph right after that where I said what you ended up saying :P
I'm happy with the way it was done, it allows a lot of replayability with each individual character and can make several different Ezrens and Marisels play, to a large extent, differently.
Lol... As always I'm sure the OP, like all of us, appreciates your involvement. It really is great that we get the insight straight from the guys that make the game what it is. Appreciated as always.
In order to fill out those feat trees you'd pretty much have to completely specialize, and even then, won't get to complete it until the path is pretty much complete.We are deliberately giving you quite a few more options for feats than we intend for you to use. If we didn't, the feats you'd choose at the end wouldn't actually *be* choices—you'd just be forced to take whatever you hadn't already taken.
The extra choices also mean higher replay value—otherwise, everybody's Ezren would be exactly the same at the end of the adventure.
I definitely agree with that. I certainly don't want 12 power feats, or even ten. I think my problem may be less with the number of feats than the timing. Getting near the end of the Adventure Path, I feel like the stakes should be getting higher and the rewards bigger. Having fewer feats feels like a step backwards, if that makes sense. If you're going to have an adventure with fewer feats it feels like it should have been earlier on (though obviously that has its own, probably bigger issues, not the least of which being the importance of making characters your own early on).
I think part of the issue with loot, is one of scaling - in a 6-character scenario, 1 piece of loot means that 5 characters get no benefit whatsoever.
I'm not sure that there's a sensible solution to this- maybe there could be loot cards in future which power up depending on the number of characters present?
Someone needs to figure out: Given the number of card feats, skill feats, and power feats each character receives, the two roles, and the multiple possible group sizes and combinations, how many different groups could you play RotR with and never have two groups end up the same in terms of characters, roles, and feats? Its the last remaining math hurdle of our generation, now that the bounded gaps conjecture for prime number distribution has a viable proof.
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I think this is more of a factor of the characters going up in "level". In the RPG you advance through more levels in each of the earlier books of the Adventure Path.
Burnt Offerings - levels 1 - 4
The Skinsaw Murders - levels 4 - 8
The Hook Mountain Massacre - levels 8 - 11
Fortress of the Stone Giants - levels 11 - 13
Sins of the Saviors - levels 13 - 15
Spires of Xin-Shalast - levels 15 -17
I think that this is another way for PACG to simulate that things are getting harder as you progress.
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Loot doesn't bother me as much as "pull a random boon of (type)." Did A5S2 with my girlfriend last night and managed to pull a Detect Evil. Woo. At least she got a Disintegrate out of it.
Some of it is that by this point we have decks that we are very happy with - there are only a couple cards left that would be improvements. Even loot treasure has to be amazing for us to want to keep it.
I did notice that we're not getting a skill feat this adventure. Also I'm getting to the point with Kyra that I may not want too many more card feats actually.
I imagine the "everyone gets a random card" rewards are better with more players - you get more stuff to choose from. Conversely, our two player group throws loot away due to having too much.
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I think part of the issue with loot, is one of scaling - in a 6-character scenario, 1 piece of loot means that 5 characters get no benefit whatsoever.
Having hard choices about divvying up loot is awesome. I know it's a cooperative card game, but this part of the game is kind of competitive, and it makes it a bit fun. My personal goal in the group I play with Hawkmoon is to have someone get a card that's cool enough to make him want to give up / trade that Poog of Zarongel his Ezren is hanging on to.
I imagine the "everyone gets a random card" rewards are better with more players - you get more stuff to choose from. Conversely, our two player group throws loot away due to having too much.
Yeah, those rewards are a real bummer. We did the second scenario of AP5 today and missed out on TWO Invincible Breastplates (one beneath a Stone Head, one Kyra failed her roll by 1). We figured we'd draw two armors to try and pick it up at the end of the scenario aaaand... Fire Resistant Studded Leather. :( Woo.
Having hard choices about divvying up loot is awesome. I know it's a cooperative card game, but this part of the game is kind of competitive, and it makes it a bit fun. My personal goal in the group I play with Hawkmoon is to have someone get a card that's cool enough to make him want to give up / trade that Poog of Zarongel his Ezren is hanging on to.
Try intimidation. Remember, you can use Restoration to kill other characters and Ezren is particularly vulnerable. The Robe of Runes will work to his advantage, so make sure to get two copies of Restoration.
I already have an Illusionist Ezren, so I'm going Evoker Ezren with Calthaer. That means Poog will be really helpful to give me the Fire trait. So I might be willing to "loan" it to Lem. If Lem can offer me a great spell. Or that Clockwork Librarian might do the trick.
If only there was only a card that did the same with the Force trait that Poog does with the Fire trait.
Ugh, yeah, I hate how Fiery Weapon isn't basic or elite. I really hate that card.
I just hate getting random cards when you beat a scenario. I almost never get anything I want. I'd prefer to choose an thing from a deck that is one or two levels lower then the current scenario.
Ah, but the feeling you get when you actually pull a good card from the box is pretty amazing. It's like buying a booster pack for a CCG. Most of the time it's garbage, but once in a while you actually pull that card you'd been looking for. I am solo-playing Mirasel, and managed to pull the coveted Fire Sneeze out of the box after laying the smackdown on some cultists. (I took a spell for her, figuring i'd banish a cure each scenario and replenish it after). Of course, I really wanted the Fire Sneeze in the game where i'm playing Lem and my girlfriend is playing Valeros, but oh well, what can you do...
I have pulled Poog from the box after Local Heroes. That followed a discussion about how it would be awesome to pull Poog.
I think that the best that I have gotten was a Deathbane Light Crossbow, and I have actually seen that done in 2 separate playthroughs. Merisiel does not mind adding that to her deck at all.
I wonder if "random loot" was more like "take a random elite loot" or "random non-basic loot" or something.
Edit, incomplete thought:
I wonder if it were to be changed to ... if it would be better.
Sorry to necro this thread, but the topic is similar enough that I didn't think it warranted a new thread.
Essentially, now that we have all 6 adventures, we can start to look at the total numbers and draw some conclusions about the rewards you get. I'm going to make some general statements, and then go into a series of rambley, hopefully useful points. Since I obviously don't have the playtest experience of the people who have been doing this a long time, I obviously can't speak to the same level of experience with replay value. Therefore, my focus is going to be on the perception and first impressions that myself and my playing partner have had. Hopefully, this will provide some useful information for you.
First of all, I want to post the numbers (I'm looking at feats specifically here, since I know them off the top of my head. If someone wants to add a breakdown of loot and non-feat/non-loot rewards, that'd be cool).
So, what do we get over the course of the adventure:
Skill Feats - 6
Power Feats - 7
-Before Role Card - 3
-After Role Card - 4
Card Feats - 8
-During Adventure - 6
-After Adventure - 2
What I really wanted to post about, though, was the perception issue that is created by the slots available for feats, see below:
Skill Feats - 6/15 = 40%
Power Feats - 7/12 = 58%
-Before Role Card - 3/4 = 75%
-After Role Card - 4/8 = 50%
Card Feats - 8/10 = 80%
-During Adventure - 6/10 = 60%
-After Adventure - 2
Note how everything generally hovers around 60%. That makes sense, seeing as that's enough to allow you to really take advantage of the options available, but not enough to make all builds the same.
1. You probably already noticed what I'm going to mention next: Skill feats are not even close to that number. It's really the one thing that has disappointed me about the last few adventures (because the actual play so far has been great). When I was building my character early on, I looked at all of the feat choices and assumed I was going to have a bunch more options. This is especially a problem when you have a character like Ezren or Seoni that has a clear best stat. Since almost everyone who plays them will want to max that first, you end up having almost no room left to actually differentiate your character.
2. The next point I'm noting is Power Feats. I mentioned this before, so I won't harp on it, but I don't like the distribution of them. Specifically, you get 3/4 of the starting powers, but only potentially half of your role powers. What this does, similar to skill feats for single-attribute characters, is it prevents people who chose different roles from feeling different. By the time you get your role card, two of a single class would only have one power feat different.
3. The end-of-adventure-path rewards. I'm really not sure what to say about them, especially since I have had a great deal of disagreement over my table about these. On the one hand, as the game is currently designed, they are 100% useless, since there is nothing currently in the works about expanding these characters beyond this path. On the other, it makes sense that there is SOME reward, and it may as well be something cool. Not to mention, it sets up well for anyone who wants to make an epic-level adventure.
I think the bigger problem I have is that the reward is two card feats (in addition to loot). This takes cards from the decently varied but still full 60%, to 80%, which is getting into dangerously homogenized territory. As an example, both me and my GF have played the Sorceress. Hers focused early on getting allies and blessings, since she loved exploring, while mine was much more set on getting spells, to get more recharges. By the time we get to the end of the adventure path, I can all but guarantee you we will both have maxed out blessings, allies, and spells. This means our characters, originally so different, will look the same by the end.
Would making the last 2 feat rewards more flexible help with the feeling of "sameness" at the end? Something along the lines of "Each character gains one feat of their choice."
This would allow you to at least finish the character with either more skill feats or more power feats, or one of each, rather than taking the card feats. From a house rule perspective, it seems pretty innocuous, since any future scenarios, adventures, or adventure paths involving the character would be homebrew in any case.
Would making the last 2 feat rewards more flexible help with the feeling of "sameness" at the end? Something along the lines of "Each character gains one feat of their choice."
This would allow you to at least finish the character with either more skill feats or more power feats, or one of each, rather than taking the card feats. From a house rule perspective, it seems pretty innocuous, since any future scenarios, adventures, or adventure paths involving the character would be homebrew in any case.
Not a bad idea, I may bounce that idea when I get home.
You make a good point about the lack of skill points, but the issue has already been fixed in S&S. You'll need more skill points in that game because dumping all your points into 1 or 2 skills will get you killed. In RotR's, you only had to worry about 2 skills (combat and dex/secondary combat in Kyra's case) thus you didn't need a ton of skill points. S&S is not built like that at all (which is good and bad).
I dunno, Wisdom seems pretty important in my current run through of RoTR, but that may be the party composition. (Valeros and Lem, so a d4 and a d6, with no Survival skill). That said, it was only important enough our for Valeros to take one Wisdom feat so far (halfway through Deck 4). But I agree that Constitution / Fortitude are total non-issues at the moment, and I have heard that is changing. (Something about drowning, was it?)