Roleplaying a naive Paladin


Advice

Sovereign Court

I'm new to Paladins in PF system, so I'm seeking some advice. Is it acceptable to play a young Paladin as a low Wisdom type that simply assumes "everyone is good, until proven evil"? I mean not play the typical Lawful Good douche with a meter stick up his bum.

Just some idealistic young kid with a big sword doing the will of Desna (maybe akin to Gourry in the original Slayers anime). Can a Paladin really risk a fall by simply being too lax on 'evil'? I'd see his punishment of evil bandits as "Shame on you, don't do this again!". Or "do you promise you're *really* sorry?".

I'm wondering how silly some DMs can get with the Paladin code thing. I go by the RAW rules of evil being 'detect evil'. Therefore a peasant bandit isn't really that evil because detect evil only works on 5HD or above creatures. Is that logic going to hold with most DMs? Does detect evil = true really mean murder time? Seems too one-dimensional and silly IMO

Grand Lodge

You realize of course that that is the OTHER annoying Paladin type for parties to deal with?


Simple redeemer archetype paladin of Sarranae.


A 1 HD commoner can be a truly evil serial killer; you can't always rely on detect evil. That said, there's more than one way to fall. Imagine the guilt your character would experience if he inadvertently caused the deaths of innocents by letting a criminal off too easily? Letting bandits go isn't very "lawful", mind you. Perhaps rather than executing them, your character could turn them into the authorities. Unless they're known murderers, they're not likely to be put to death; some indentured servitude or jail time's more likely. So, if you truly believe they're repentant, let 'em atone (rather than walk).

Sovereign Court

LazarX wrote:
You realize of course that that is the OTHER annoying Paladin type for parties to deal with?

Well 7 Wisdom should reflect someone that doesn't know how the real world works right?


As a DM, I know I'd play on your character's naivety. Not to make you fall, but to present you with the realities of the world your character lives in and to force him to come to terms with that. I for one would enjoy the experience, as a player. Maybe your character starts off naive, but gains wisdom as he goes along. I'd liken it to a homicide detective fresh out of academy; he lacks the experience and street smarts to know what's what, but the more cases he's given, the more he learns; eventually, he picks up a smoking habit and starts goin' gray. Now, a paladin's just as likely to come into contact with horrible things as a homicide detective, so why not have his character reflect that?


Look into Shelyn's code for paladins. I'm playing one now with abysmal wis and int, who does pretty much this. He's a huge fellow who hates fighting and will take any opportunity to diplomatically end a combat. It's worked for me so far.


This could be a lot of fun.

See Stupid Good for a discussion of a relevant trope and links to other possibly relevant tropes (such as Fluffy Tamer for when assuming the best in everyone actually works).


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I have a Redeemer Archetype in a game, right now, who is kind of this. Keep in mind a few things:

1. Nobody is ignorant of everything. That schtick becomes cartoonish and annoying really quickly. Try to identify situations that your character would have to be aware of and play those normally. This will prevent the constant facepalming and headdesking of your companions.

2. Some things are irredeemable, and you should know that. "Don't kill the lich until we offer him a chance to change his ways!" is really unpleasant for your party to deal with, and could get them killed. After a while they may just ignore you, anyway, which will make things difficult and uncomfortable. Chromatic Dragons, Outsiders with the Evil subtype, and Undead are specifically called out by the Redeemer's Merciful Smite. That's a good place to start.

3. Draw a line in the sand. There's a point that you don't allow anyone to cross. "I know he steals from me and spends the money on illicit drugs," is one thing... "I know he consumed the souls of a room full of children to give himself pseudo-immortality," is another.

4. Most of your friends are there to kill baddies. If you make this difficult or un-fun, they will not appreciate it. If every fight results in prisoners you have to maintain, and massive drains on the party resources to heal, etc..., they will not appreciate it.

Now, these are not hardline rules. It's not that you can never do these things. Just don't do them all of the time. You can spare people occasionally, and your allies may grumble a bit, but will ultimately indulge you in this idiosyncrasy. If you try to spare everyone, they will not. While this may bend-ish/break-ish the lines of reason, you should still do it, always keeping in mind that this is a game (one that your friends want to enjoy playing too).


I must object to #2. There are numerous philosophies and religions, both in-game and out, that posit that no one is beyond redemption. Fortunately, that does not obviate the paladin's responsibility to stop an orphan-eating lich from doing further harm, even if that means destroying it.


It's perfectly acceptable to start out naive. It's not as acceptable to stay that way.

Sovereign Court

In the case of bandits, I'd see my character trying to turn them over to the local guards or magistrate. At very least taking their weapons and knocking them out. If it's a corrupt politician, the idea would be to expose him. For goblins, probably just scare them off with his horse or something.

For undead, evil outsiders and so forth... Yeah, no quarter is drawn. That's what Oath of Vengeance is made of. Smite evil gets laid down and power attack w/ a side of charge. Undead are not redeemable. I think even a 7 wisdom Paladin realizes that. Now whether he realizes they're undead or not...


LazarX wrote:
You realize of course that that is the OTHER annoying Paladin type for parties to deal with?

I suppose that is the reason he is there asking for advices.


I would also point out that 'idealistic' does not mean 'low Int and/or Wis.' Pragmatism is not a measure of intelligence, and idealism doesn't indicate its opposite. Many, if not most, paladins (and many, many other types of heroes) are idealistic, and it doesn't make them stupid or naive.


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But it is a common—specious, but common—tactic for those who despise such ideals to equate them with stupidity.


blahpers wrote:
I must object to #2. There are numerous philosophies and religions, both in-game and out, that posit that no one is beyond redemption. Fortunately, that does not obviate the paladin's responsibility to stop an orphan-eating lich from doing further harm, even if that means destroying it.

This isn't really an ethics rule. It's a game guideline.

I go on to point out at the bottom that nothing I listed was set in stone. You can do anything that your DM will allow you to do. But, you can also pretty quickly kill the fun at the table for the other people who did not choose a Paladin as their character.

Right now, my Redeemer has a "captive" that he is dragging along with him wherever he goes, and is trying to teach him how to be a good, upstanding person. He was previously part of a group of thugs that tried to ambush us and kill us on a pretty flimsy, albeit "official" pretext. Five of their group were killed outright in the battle. Three surrendered and were allowed to leave with the promise that if we ever saw them again, we would assume they were trying to kill us and would respond accordingly. Two were injured, and just barely alive. My paladin healed them both, sending one on his way with the bodies of the fallen, and keeping just the one to redeem.

Since then, every enemy we have faced has either been killed outright or allowed to flee, depending on circumstance. I kept one, and I won't/wouldn't keep any others. Is it fair? Is it reasonable? Probably not, in real life terms. But, it is the price you pay for a cooperative storytelling game where every player is afforded the chance to tell their story and indulge in some of the spotlight.

So, yes. If you want to offer redemption to everyone you meet that's fine. As an exercise in true morality, it may even be admirable. But, unless everyone at the table is playing that same type of character, it's a pretty selfish way to play.

Sovereign Court

Jaelithe wrote:
But it is a common—specious, but common—tactic for those who despise such ideals to equate them with stupidity.

It's the same basic premise with politics, we tend to demonize what we disagree with and don't understand. Humans fear the unknown and need to slap a label on it in order to feel better about their own ignorance. Hold that fire to the darkness, and delve down that dungeon corridor. In a sense it's exploring the darkness that exists in ourselves.

My opinion is that part of the fun of playing a Paladin is that you're exploring the light side of other people, and trying to make the best of bad situations. In most real life situations, we wouldn't kill bandits by default or automatically murder hobo everything. Because it's a fantasy game, people tend to forget that. But the bandits have families too, and some of them steal for perfectly understandable reasons.

My 2 copper is that bad DMs try to make Paladins fall as a goal, good DMs try to explore moral ambiguity as part of the overall plot of their story.


pathfindernovice wrote:
My 2 copper is that bad DMs try to make Paladins fall as a goal, good DMs try to explore moral ambiguity as part of the overall plot of their story.

In my opinion, if it's your goal as DM to make a paladin fall, you're an unequivocal jackass.

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