Spellcraft identify the properties of magic items w / o magic?

[chaoskin]

i hate posting this crap here a other one

corebook wrote:

Check: Spellcraft is used whenever your knowledge
and skill of the technical art of casting a spell or crafting
a magic item comes into question. This skill is also
used to identify the properties of magic items in your
possession through the use of spells such as detect magic
and identify. The DC of this check varies depending
upon the task at hand.

can it be done?

if so were can i find it?

[Robert A Matthews]

You can figure out what an item does by trying to activate it blindly with UMD. Otherwise, there is no way I know of to identify the properties of a magic item without Detect Magic or Identify.

[blahpers]

I'm not sure what your question is, chaoskin. The rules you quoted for Spellcraft require that you use a spell such as detect magic or identify for most items.

Some other options for specific cases:

Appraise can reveal that an item is magical--but not its properties.

Statistically, 30% of randomly-generated wands have some clue as to its function present in its design or construction.

You can identify a potion with a Perception check by sampling it (DC 15 + spell level, or higher for rare or unusual potions).

You can identify a scroll with a Spellcraft check that doesn't require detect magic, but it's not easy--most characters would be better off using read magic.

Edit: As Robert mentioned, you can blindly activate an item to learn about its effects. If the item is interesting enough, though, then that might not be sufficient to really tell you its properties. Blindly activating a wayfinder for light would tell you that it can light up because, well, it would light up, but it wouldn't tell you jack about its ability to house, activate, or resonate with ioun stones.

That's pretty much it.

[LazarX]

Are you the same person who just asked whether appraise could identify cursed items?

If so, the answer is still no. The item will identify and appraise as it's apparent function, not it's true nature.

Of course if the curse actually demonstrates itself in front of the appraiser it becomes a no brainer.... if the appraiser survives the demnostration and isn't influenced to hide the truth by it.

[Hendelbolaf]

If the question is "can I use Spellcraft along with Detect Magic and Identify to identify the properties of a magic item?" The answer is yes!

Where is it found? Under the description of Spellcraft there is a chart and it says "Identify the properties of a magic item using Detect Magic" and Spellcraft DC "15 + item's caster level."

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

Identify can be used instead and it works like Detect Magic with a +10 bonus to the Spellcraft check. Plus no more 100gp pearl and several castings to identify a treasure horde so that is nice!

I hope that and the answers above help to answer your question.

[LazarX]

Hendel, he's wanting to use spellcraft without casting any spells for this purpose. So that's a no.

[Robert A Matthews]

Hendelbolaf wrote:

Identify can be used instead and it works like Detect Magic with a +10 bonus to the Spellcraft check. Plus no more 100gp pearl and several castings to identify a treasure horde so that is nice!

Plus that's one drunk Wizard afterward.

[Hendelbolaf]

LazarX wrote:

Hendel, he's wanting to use spellcraft without casting any spells for this purpose. So that's a no.

Wow! I reread it and I do not know how you figured that one out by just reading the op. Obviously LazarX has a much greater Sense Motive than I do (LOL).

Again, I see the bolded text as saying ID the item through the use of Detect Magic or Identify. It does not suggest to me that the skill alone is enough.

I am not sure of all the other non-Detect Magic ways but here are a few:

Appraise of DC 25 will let you know it is magic but not what the properties are.

Perception of DC 15 + potion spell level will let you ID a potion.

Spellcraft of DC 20 + spell level of a scroll will let you ID a scroll.

If there are more, I would like to know...

[Ughbash]

Hendelbolaf wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Hendel, he's wanting to use spellcraft without casting any spells for this purpose. So that's a no.

Wow! I reread it and I do not know how you figured that one out by just reading the op. Obviously LazarX has a much greater Sense Motive than I do (LOL).

You get a circumstance bonus to sense motive if you read the Title of the thread.

[Hendelbolaf]

Ughbash wrote:

Hendelbolaf wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Hendel, he's wanting to use spellcraft without casting any spells for this purpose. So that's a no.

Wow! I reread it and I do not know how you figured that one out by just reading the op. Obviously LazarX has a much greater Sense Motive than I do (LOL).

You get a circumstance bonus to sense motive if you read the Title of the thread.

Where is the fun in that? I glanced over the thread title once but obviously did not pick up on that.

Edit: It may have something to do with the "w / o" as I tend to read only one side of the / or the other. Maybe it is a negative effect of too much Internet use and casual glancing...

[chaoskin]

what i was talking about was spellcraft only

he would as someone for "what they see what type of magic" so he can Identify the item w\o using magic by using the skill only

i do know about using skill to Identify magic item thro Appraise, perception ect.

and so far you have to use magic (any spell) plus spellcraft to Identify anything that what im seeing so far

[kinevon]

As designed and written, you can only identify the magical properties of an item using Spellcraft in association with either the detect magic spell, where you have to roll the spellcraft check, or with the identify spell, which gives you a +10 bonus on your spellcraft roll, and also allows you to take 10 on the roll if you so desire, since identify does not require concentration.

There are ways for a non-caster to get the ability to cast detect magic, though.

Simplest: One level of almost any full caster class, since most of them have detect magic in their cantrip/orison lists.

Less simple: Two levels of Rogue/Ninja, and take the minor magic talent, which lets you cast a 0 levbel spell 3 times per day.
I believe there is a feat that allows the limited use of a cantrip, similar to the Rogue talent.
Same for at least one regular race, like gnome with a Char of 11 gives them detect magic as a spell-like ability a limited number of times per day.

Campaign-limited: Requires your GM to allow wayfinders to be purchased, that you have a Prestige/Fame system rtunning, and the GM to allow the use of prestige costing wayfinder enhancements from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide or Pathfinder Society Primer, to get the discerning enhancement on a wayfinder, which allows the user to cast detect magic at will.

I am sure that there are other items and abilities that give those out, like the Lens of Sight or whatever it is called, that gives detect magic, usable for 10 minutes a day, in 1 minute increments.

[Cevah]

kinevon wrote:

As designed and written, you can only identify the magical properties of an item using Spellcraft in association with either the detect magic spell, where you have to roll the spellcraft check, or with the identify spell, which gives you a +10 bonus on your spellcraft roll, and also allows you to take 10 on the roll if you so desire, since identify does not require concentration.

Not sure where you got "concentrating on the task at hand" = "Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10."

Spellcaft allows Take-10 normally when you have plenty of time.

/cevah

[chaoskin]

would taking 10 be 10 time as long if it takes 1 round then it will take 10 rounds IDK if you have the time/lvls or if you can

[Avh]

Taking 10 doesn't take 10 times longer, it takes the same time.

Outside of combat, you can identify items with Detect magic while taking 10 with no problems at all.

[LazarX]

kinevon wrote:

As designed and written, you can only identify the magical properties of an item using Spellcraft in association with either the detect magic spell, where you have to roll the spellcraft check, or with the identify spell, which gives you a +10 bonus on your spellcraft roll, and also allows you to take 10 on the roll if you so desire, since identify does not require concentration.

There are ways for a non-caster to get the ability to cast detect magic, though.

Simplest: One level of almost any full caster class, since most of them have detect magic in their cantrip/orison lists.

Less simple: Two levels of Rogue/Ninja, and take the minor magic talent, which lets you cast a 0 levbel spell 3 times per day.
I believe there is a feat that allows the limited use of a cantrip, similar to the Rogue talent.
Same for at least one regular race, like gnome with a Char of 11 gives them detect magic as a spell-like ability a limited number of times per day.

Campaign-limited: Requires your GM to allow wayfinders to be purchased, that you have a Prestige/Fame system rtunning, and the GM to allow the use of prestige costing wayfinder enhancements from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide or Pathfinder Society Primer, to get the discerning enhancement on a wayfinder, which allows the user to cast detect magic at will.

I am sure that there are other items and abilities that give those out, like the Lens of Sight or whatever it is called, that gives detect magic, usable for 10 minutes a day, in 1 minute increments.

You also aren't paying attention to the OP's request. He wants to be able to use spellcraft to identify items WITHOUT CASTING ANY MAGIC AT ALL. He did not ask for methods to get detect magic or identify. He wants to to get magic identification with no spell use at all. And the answer to that is, by the rules... there isn't a way.

[Splendor]

I think maybe he is asking because the Action heading for the spellcraft skill it says:

Quote:

Attempting to ascertain the properties of a magic item takes 3 rounds per item to be identified and you must be able to thoroughly examine the object.

Doesn't mention it takes you casting detect magic.

Under the Retry heading it mentions detect magic:

Quote:

When using detect magic or identify to learn the properties of magic items, you can only attempt to ascertain the properties of an individual item once per day. Additional attempts reveal the same results.

Maybe he thought there was just a penalty to spellcraft to use it without the detect magic spell (like the 3.5 read magic).

Speaking of read magic, what is it used for now? Looks like you don't need it at all. (in 3.5 spellcraft check to ID magical writing were 10 points higher if you didn't cast read magic).

-------

The magic section of the book does allude that you might be able to identify an items properties without detect magic:

Quote:

The Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (history) skills might be useful in helping to identify command words or deciphering clues regarding them. A successful check against DC 30 is needed to come up with the word itself. If that check is failed, succeeding on a second check (DC 25) might provide some insight into a clue.

If you can use Arcana & History to know magical item command words, you should be able to know what the magical items did.

"Oh this was the staff of Arulea, and it was said her staff could charm animals with the word: Tonedek".

[N N 959]

Splendor wrote:

Speaking of read magic, what is it used for now? Looks like you don't need it at all.

Read Magic is useful when you find a scroll and you want to use it immediately. While most (if not all) casting classes get Spellcraft, not everyone can afford to keep it at max. I am GMing a scenario at 1st level where several casters got some scrolls from an NPC and most of them forgot to take RM as a cantrip. Guess what that means?

Ironically, the Summoner tried to use a CL 6 scroll and failed the CL check and the the mishap. Fortunately for her, I told her she couldn't read it because she didn't have RM and she failed her UMD as she didn't have a point in Spellcraft.