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Here's a Friday afternoon question.
Say you're inside a building with 15ft tall ceilings and have a huge enemy squaring off against a wizard and the town guard, which are circling this huge enemy. To make things interesting, give the wizard a large sized ally that he's taking cover behind.
Imagine the setup is similar to this picture: link
Say this wizard wants to drop a fireball on the huge creature which is backed up against a wall.
#1. Can the wizard even target the square A-6 since it's "inside" of the huge target?
#2. Does the wizard need to roll an attack roll to hit the huge monster since his large ally (in purple) is in his way, providing soft cover to his target square?
I believe the answers are 1) No and 2) Yes - but suspect these things are commonly overlooked when fireballs are lobbed about a battlefield.
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He can target any square for the fireball to center from. Even though that square is occupied by a creature it doesn't mean the the creature FILLS that square. Combat is fluid with beings moving around and such ...
For #2 there is no attack roll. He just decides where it is gonna be centered and it does it. The only touch attack roll would be if you were going through a small opening or something like and arrow slit. You aren't.
The description says a pea-sized ball streaks towards the target but it doesn't neccessarily go in a straight line. A GM could rule that the inner square of a creature is not accessible but that isn't a hard rule. You could always just aim it higher or to one side and still hit the creature....it is a 20'radius ball, so you could detonate it 25' above the ground centered over the huge dude and still hit him with it.
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Ah, I feel like you're overlooking this part of fireball:
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. An early impact results in an early detonation. If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must "hit" the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.
The wizard isn't picking the square and the fireball isn't bursting from it. He's specifying he wants to hit the square 35ft away, and the fireball "bead" that emits from his finger is connecting with possibly two material bodies before it reaches a range of 35ft.
But as he stated, there is no rule that says it travels in a straight line either.
The rules only state that if you pass through a narrow passage you have to make an attack roll, or if there is a solid barrier it will prevent it. Interestingly, the solid barrier bit pretty much only applies if someone readies an action to cast a wall spell that would completely block off access. Creatures do not count as solid barrier. There is no attack roll.
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Interestingly, the solid barrier bit pretty much only applies if someone readies an action to cast a wall spell that would completely block off access. Creatures do not count as solid barrier. There is no attack roll.
Or if there happens to be an invisible wall or creature in the way and in the case of an invisible creature you have to roll to see if you hit the invisible dude. I have had GMs do this in the past. "Why am I rolling an attack and/or a miss chance...Oh...crap. He's only 10' in front of me? Oh....crap...*Boom!" Sizzle, scorch....
I've never called for an attack roll on a fireball spell unless shooting it through a small hole. If you want to call for an attack roll on it though, it would be AC 5 for the grid intersection, +4 for cover, so AC 9 to make it land where he wants.
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I'm pretty certain the creature counts as a "material body" and you can't have the fireball wait until it gets 10 feet into the huge-sized creature and wait to detonate until it reaches the middle back square in order to control it's area of effect. It would detonate the moment it touches the creature, whatever edge that is.
Given that, it could also detonate when it comes into contact with any creature that happened to be in the way.
What makes you think the bead of the streaking fireball can make turns or change directions?
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As Fake Healer said earlier, combat is fluid. Those "material bodies" between you and the target and the target itself are not just standing there erect as their mini suggests all of the time. They are moving, attacking, dodging, etc. So the large ally in front of you could move to one side at some point then you lean to the other and shoot past him. The monster occupying the corner you want to target will eventually move just enough to leave it open so you could target it.
You are looking too deep into it.
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I'm pretty certain the creature counts as a "material body" and you can't have the fireball wait until it gets 10 feet into the huge-sized creature and wait to detonate until it reaches the middle back square in order to control it's area of effect. It would detonate the moment it touches the creature, whatever edge that is.
Given that, it could also detonate when it comes into contact with any creature that happened to be in the way.
What makes you think the bead of the streaking fireball can make turns or change directions?
You asked for answers, they have been given. The reasons have been given. Yet you are dismissing them. Do you want people's opinions or just someone to agree with you?
Combat needs to be a bit abstract for it to work, especially magic. The rules have been stated pretty well in the thread, attacking a square with fireball is pretty straightforward, in most cases Fireball is a 'put it where you want it' aoe, barring the bead going through a narrow space or impacting a wall (I don't know that in 20 years of gaming if that one's ever actually happened in my games).
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You asked for answers, they have been given. The reasons have been given. Yet you are dismissing them. Do you want people's opinions or just someone to agree with you?
I'm not sure anyone has actually answered #1 and said "yes, you can target A,6 on the grid even though the fireball would need to pass through 10ft of creature to reach it".
To be clear - in the case of the 10ft mentioned here, I'm referring to the huge creature itself, not the large ally potentially in the way (question #2).
You asked for answers, they have been given. The reasons have been given. Yet you are dismissing them. Do you want people's opinions or just someone to agree with you?I'm not sure anyone has actually answered #1 and said "yes, you can target A,6 on the grid even though the fireball would need to pass through 10ft of creature to reach it".
To be clear - in the case of the 10ft mentioned here, I'm referring to the huge creature itself, not the large ally potentially in the way (question #2).
Can you target a creature that is behind another creature with a touch attack? If so then why not a square or grid intersection?
Let me give an example that may help clear things up. If I want to shoot an arrow at an enemy but there is someone in between us, does the arrow go "through" the person in between?
No. But a magic arrow could go "around" the person in between.
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An arrow or ray attack simply needs to hit the creature in any way it can, which in the case of the example picture would be along the edge of the "C" row. Your arrows or rays don't need to strike the creature in its "A" row.
Fireball is a bit like a splash weapon or an alchemist bomb where this text is likely to come into play:
You can't target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you're aiming at the creature.
I see a lot of alchemist players who don't realize this and throw their bombs in such a way they actually detonate a few squares "into" huge/gargantuan/etc creatures.
Thus, why I'm suggesting the fireball detonates when it impacts the creature along the "A" row like a splash weapon or alchemist bomb would. You can't aim for a location "inside of a creature".
The fireball doesn't hold its explosion when it comes into the contact with the creature and wait to travel 10 more feet for the safety of the wizard's allies.
The op should re read the spell targeting rules.
The general rule is spells have line of effect unless a solid object with less than a 1 foot square opening.
However fireball has a physical bead and an exception to these rules. You can make an attack roll to place the bead in the small opening.
People have no bearing on spell targeting unless its a ray or touch attack.
An arrow or ray attack simply needs to hit the creature in any way it can, which in the case of the example picture would be along the edge of the "C" row. Your arrows or rays don't need to strike the creature in its "A" row.
Fireball is a bit like a splash weapon or an alchemist bomb where this text is likely to come into play:
You can't target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you're aiming at the creature.I see a lot of alchemist players who don't realize this and throw their bombs in such a way they actually detonate a few squares "into" huge/gargantuan/etc creatures.
Thus, why I'm suggesting the fireball detonates when it impacts the creature along the "A" row like a splash weapon or alchemist bomb would. You can't aim for a location "inside of a creature".
The fireball doesn't hold its explosion when it comes into the contact with the creature and wait to travel 10 more feet for the safety of the wizard's allies.
Fireball is not a splash weapon. The fireball travels from your finger to the spot you point at, you are not throwing it. Also, you are erroneously assuming that an attack passing through a creature's square is coming into contact with that creature. It's not.
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You also haven't answered my question yet: It's not passing through the creature though. Is that creature just standing there not doing anything?
In order to reach A,6 how is it not passing through the creature?
Does it help illustrate the question if we say this huge creature is a huge-sized gelatinous cube?
The bead needs to travel to A,6 - what route does it take to avoid requiring an attack roll? Does it fly up to the back wall around A,9 then skim along it to detonate behind the gelatinous cube?
At this point, your question has been answered, and clarifications provided. You seem bent on doing it your way regardless of what others' interpretations of the rules are, so why keep debating it? Just do it the way you want. You are the GM afterall(I asssume).
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It's Friday - it's a discussion about how GMs run targeting of fireball, not a debate.
I imagine a lot of GMs don't play with the whole "bead from finger" and then deal with the complexity of targeting a fireball through obstacles on a battlefield. It's certainly easier to just let it center anywhere without a roll.
The fireball mechanic goes way back to 1E where wizards state the range (i.e. "20 feet") and it streaks out from their finger in an attempt to achieve the stated range.
Basically the way I see it, and I'm not trying to be obtuse, is that the wizard has a choice: (a) cast it without a roll and it hits the monster on a point of its closest face - the wizard can't pick anywhere on the far side or inside of monster, or (b) he tries to hit an exact grid intersection location he wants, and makes an attack roll to do so, factoring in usual rules for a ranged attack.
The Friday discussion I was aiming for here was more about when the attack roll is called for, and it sounds like I'm in a minority thus far in applying it for someone targeting a corner of A,6.
My next question for stimulating Friday chat would've been say that was the state of the battlefield on Round 1, upon the end of which someone dropped Deeper Darkness on the battlefield. Could the wizard still pinpoint a corner of A,6 from memory, even though his ability to target a corner of A,6 relies on timing the huge creature's positioning? What rolls would be required?
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You also haven't answered my question yet: It's not passing through the creature though. Is that creature just standing there not doing anything?In order to reach A,6 how is it not passing through the creature?
Does it help illustrate the question if we say this huge creature is a huge-sized gelatinous cube?
The bead needs to travel to A,6 - what route does it take? Does it fly up to the back wall around A,9 then skim along it to detonate behind the gelatinous cube?
Still haven't answered it. The question was:
Is the creature just standing there not doing anything?
Because if he isn't (which should be the case), then that spot the wizard wants to aim at will eventually open up, even if it's for a millisecond, for him to target it.
Combat is fluid and abstract.
In the case of a Gelatinous Cube or some other creature that literally fills up the space with its body, as a GM I might rule that the fireball explodes on impact with the surface (might). But that situation is by far the exception. Any other random Huge creature in the space isn't going to get the same consideration because they're not actually filling up that space.
In either case, intervening bodies, whether large or otherwise, have no impact on where the Fireball actually explodes. Nor is there a requirement to make an attack roll because of their presence.
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Still haven't answered it. The question was: Is the creature just standing there not doing anything?
I think we're going back and forth a little here as I'm on the "would you employ an attack roll?" point and you're on the "can the point in space be targeted at all" point.
I agree the point can be targeted.
I'd been expending effort on the (unclear?) point that I've run that because it's heated combat, I'd call for an attack roll to avoid the creature and hit the point in space (barring a bead that zooms around avoiding things).
This means I err on the side that the fireball's magic is less powerful at weaving through things by its own merit (an interpretation derived by the fact it includes a narrow passage example).
I certainly see the kind of huge creature having bearing here (my question actually came from imagining a huge shambling mound for what it's worth). If it's a huge centipede, huge snake or huge otyugh, hitting a point on the ground would be harder than if it's a biped in the square. Unless that biped had a huge tower shield, and it was working to apply total cover to its square(s).
It's Friday - it's a discussion about how GMs run targeting of fireball, not a debate.
I imagine a lot of GMs don't play with the whole "bead from finger" and then deal with the complexity of targeting a fireball through obstacles on a battlefield. It's certainly easier to just let it center anywhere without a roll.
The fireball mechanic goes way back to 1E where wizards state the range (i.e. "20 feet") and it streaks out from their finger in an attempt to achieve the stated range.
Basically the way I see it, and I'm not trying to be obtuse, is that the wizard has a choice: (a) cast it without a roll and it hits the monster on a point of its closest face - the wizard can't pick anywhere on the far side or inside of monster, or (b) he tries to hit an exact grid intersection location he wants, and makes an attack roll to do so, factoring in usual rules for a ranged attack.
The Friday discussion I was aiming for here was more about when the attack roll is called for, and it sounds like I'm in a minority thus far in applying it for someone targeting a corner of A,6.
My next question for stimulating Friday chat would've been say that was the state of the battlefield on Round 1, upon the end of which someone dropped Deeper Darkness on the battlefield. Could the wizard still pinpoint a corner of A,6 from memory, even though his ability to target a corner of A,6 relies on timing the huge creature's positioning? What rolls would be required?
Have you actually read the spell targetring rules? Firrball works lime this. Do I have a line to the target in which at least 1 foot square of open space exists. If yes you can dro it anywhere with pinpoint sccuracy.
Is there a spot to place the bead through that is smaller than a square foot? Make an attack rolll. If
It doesn't come up a lot unless your besieging a castle. In a game a while ago we had a wizard do this from 700ft away as it has no penalties.
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I still don't see a reason for an attack roll other than it being a houserule at this point. The example they give of an arrow slit is a lot smaller than any "opening" created in combat.
It's the subjectivity around "narrow passage" (of which arrow slit is one (potentially extreme?) example) which I believe makes interesting conversation.
See this image.
I imagine a wizard saying "I want to target the orc in the 4th row in the middle" (assuming the wizard is on the ground and not flying above things) calls for an attack roll to find that brief "narrow passage" amidst the battle.
As a GM, I strive for verisimilitude and when there's something up for a subjective call regarding the power of spells, I typically lean towards making spells less powerful (in this case by calling for an attack roll earlier than someone else would).
As someone pointed out to me this week, by the rules you can drop a newborn baby from 9ft high and it takes no damage, but once it's dropped 10ft, it takes 1d6. I'd apply damage and consequence here, despite there being no rules that state there's any.
I still don't see a reason for an attack roll other than it being a houserule at this point. The example they give of an arrow slit is a lot smaller than any "opening" created in combat.It's the subjectivity around "narrow passage" (of which arrow slit is one (potentially extreme?) example) which I believe makes interesting conversation.
See this image.
I imagine a wizard saying "I want to target the orc in the 4th row in the middle" (assuming the wizard is on the ground and not flying above things) calls for an attack roll to find that brief "narrow passage" amidst the battle.
Maybe if the wizard wants to hit that orc in the belt, you would have a verisimilitude argument (though not a RAW one). Target the point right above his head and you have no issues.
RAW fireball doesn't require an attack roll for being aimed through a space containing a creature, as it is explicitly spelled out what conditions require a ranged touch attack roll.
If you're questioning the amount of open space in a square occupied by a creature, remember that another creature can tumble through the occupied square with an Acrobatics check while the occupying creature is actively trying to impede him. A spellcaster can easily find an open path to his target wider than an arrow slit through that example square.
The only time I have ever personally house-ruled an attack roll for a fireball going through an occupied square was when a bodyguarding eidolon "pass blocked" the bead with a readied move action to provide soft cover to his master.
The fact that you keep asking means you haven't read how spell targetting works. Ill simplify it.
There is an army 1000 foot square. Provided there are no walls or siege weapons In the way he can target the intrlersection of orc 678 with pinpoint accuracy. A narrow ooening is not subjective seriously read the damn targetring rules for spells.
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he can target the intrlersection of orc 678 with pinpoint accuracy.
You and I play very different games.
There's no question in my mind that orc #678 has cover from line-of-effect and line-of-sight (this is different than targeting an unobstructed point in space above said orc where the wizard called out 3,390ft as his range).
Once there's a few dozen creatures on the battlefield in between an archer and a target, I'd practically always be running total cover.
This could go to a RAW discussion - but it just doesn't make sense to have rules for crowds of 50 people that can provide total cover for a person in the crowd, but then suggest they don't apply to 1000 orcs.
Sigh he has no cover he has both line of sight and line of effect. Your reading the line on targetring wrong its not there to hinder the caster its a benefit.
Try this a wizard is 80 feet back from a wall. There is a hole in the wall that is 1.5ft square. Behind it are 200 orcs. Can the wizard hit square 8 rows back with no roll? Yes.
If it is under 1 ft square he needs a roll.
Sorry I did think of one thing which I'd have to check ruled on when dealing with large creatures if your line of effect goes through their body. Normslly creatures don't block los but in my wall example I'm nit sure how a huge drafon standing behind the hole woukd effect things. It either wont change anything or blocks los entirely.
Ah, I feel like you're overlooking this part of fireball:
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. An early impact results in an early detonation. If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must "hit" the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.The wizard isn't picking the square and the fireball isn't bursting from it. He's specifying he wants to hit the square 35ft away, and the fireball "bead" that emits from his finger is connecting with possibly two material bodies before it reaches a range of 35ft.
Fireball is NOT a ranged touch attack. By the rules he only needs line of effect to choose the placing of the effect just like any other spell. The only reason you need an attack roll to put a fireball through a hole in a wall is because you not not just trying to put the bead in a 5 foot area, but you are trying to put the fireball in a very specific area within the 5 foot area.
Creatures don't block any other spell where you have line of effect so no reason to assume they are blocking fireball. As an example a large creature would not stop you from placing a hold person spell where you want it.
Before you try to use a spell such as lightening bolt as an example the bolt creates a line(for lack of a better word) from point A to B. That is not the same as just commanding the fireball from going to square X and explode.
If the caster has line of sight and line of effect then he can target you. What may be realistic and what you may like has no bearing on the rules.
One of my favorite examples-> Paralyzed characters get a reflex save.