Advice needed: lov level Sorcerer and Magical Lineage

[Sean_Powell]

Hello,

I'm just starting an Ifrit Sorcerer Wishcrafter in the Mummys Mask campaign setting. I've been reading all of the build guides which have been really helpful... However there is one thing I'm REALLY not getting.

It seems the master combination for sorcerer builds is to mix Magical Lineage Trait with the appropriate Meta-Magic Feat. From 6th to 10th level an Intensified burning hands is a very nice 1st level spell. But until then Intensified is a waste of a feat. Selective requires 10 Spellcraft which comes at later levels. Piercing isn't useful until higher levels when enemies have SR. Lingering has limited use. Still and Silent even more limited use. I'm not impressed with many of the others. The best combination I can see is Focused for raising the DC of 1 target in the AOE of burning hands and then picking up Intensified later... but a technical reading of the rules says that if there is only one target in the AOE it doesn't suffer a +2 DC.

BUT Unless you burn a feat for 2 more traits characters can only select Magical Lineage at 1st level.

So what's the secret? Burn 2/3rds of your feats on meta-magic and 1/3rd to get magical lineage traits? And is there any way this is useful at lower levels or just gut it out until 5th? Sorcerers get such a small selection of spells that you want to be able to make they flexible with meta-magic but it seems like players will be taking meta-magic feats that are useful with only 1 or 2 spells (and the rods are VERY expensive)

What am I missing here?
Sean

[Zhayne]

Magical Lineage affects a particular spell, not a particular meta-magic feat.

Note that this does not have to be a spell you are capable of casting at the moment.

[Scavion]

Magical Lineage works incredibly for Toppling Magic Missles. A useful trick at a lot of levels.

Generally Magical Lineage is a staple of boom mage builds and you should take Fireball for it if that's what you're shooting for.

[Sean_Powell]

Zhayne (nice Icon BTW, playing a kitsune?) I understand it affects a spell not a feat but the point was a lot of metamagic feats are only useful to small sets of spells. Even if a sorcerer concentrates on kaboom type spells he may not take any 2nd level AOE spells or no fire spells or something else. That means especially at low levels metamagic feats may only apply to 1 or 2 spells in an arsenal.

Scavion. Interesting. I hadn't gone through to see which spells had the force descriptor. tripping magic missiles could be very effective but the game would be boring if everyone did. MM tends to be the only first level combat spell used at higher levels. Sleep and Color Spray usually don't affect high enough hit dice and if a blaster is intentionally getting close enough for touch or burning hands spells then they are likely a drain on the party cleric if not professional daisy pusher.

Net result is: I can see the benefit to magical lineage at higher levels but it essentially needs to be taken at 1st level. (and I was corrected, only 1 magic trait so it's only ever one spell. Can't take a feat to select 2 more) At an estimated 3 gaming nights per level it's 18 game-nights to hit 6th when a sorcerer gets fire-ball or burning hands might jump to 6D4. We alternate 2 campaigns to give DM's down time so 36 weeks from now, maybe 40 with some vacation time, there starts to be some return on investment.

Do people really sacrifice a trait at 1st level for a spell their character may not survive long enough to even cast?

Sean

[andreww]

Yes but then I dont care about its use with blasting spells. I normally take it for something like Glitterdust which allows Persistent at level 6. If I think a game will go to high level (15+) I will take it for whichever spell I plan on using spell perfection for.

[Zhayne]

I never said it was a GOOD trait. For better or ill, not all options in PF are equal. Magical Lineage is good if there's one spell you really want to focus on (the aforementioned Fireball, for example), but if not, you can easily skip it.

[Mojorat]

To the op I would figure out what playstyle you want wirh your sorcerer then decide if a metamagic feat fits that.

For the record I think wishcraftet leans towards buff?debuff but that's me.

[andreww]

Zhayne wrote:

I never said it was a GOOD trait. For better or ill, not all options in PF are equal. Magical Lineage is good if there's one spell you really want to focus on (the aforementioned Fireball, for example), but if not, you can easily skip it.

Magical Lineage is probably the best caster trait in the game. Metamagic reducers were a major source of caster power in 3.x and PF is no different.

[Rerednaw]

Something to consider is that both Magical Lineage AND Wayang Spellhunter may be taken. And the benefits stack.

So how does an Empowered Fireball that uses a 3rd level slot sound? Or for that matter being able to cast Quickened Fireballs as a 5th level slot? Or perhaps something like a Persistent Hold Person as a second level slot?

You still have your spell selection to cover other bases and roles...but using metamagic reducers makes one or two spells *very* effective.

IMHO both Sorcerers and for the most part Wizards lean towards some form of specialization. It's not that much different than focusing a specific weapon or fighting style via feats. As a martial you can choose to be good with a long list of weapons...and very good if you choose to focus on a more narrow class of weapons or styles.

[tsuruki]

Most metamagic feats are mediocre or bad at low levels, just like most full casters are themselves mediocre or bad at low levels in general.
As a GM I hesitate to roll up lvl 1 spellcasters For this very reason.

Of all the low level feat combinations I love best for casters, it's Extra traits and Reach spell.

Extra traits to sprinkle magic lineage on more spells. If your GM forbids it then Lightning reflexes or Improved initiative are often worth considering.

If you put magical lineage on Shocking grasp and then apply Reach spell, well you won't be needing any other 1st level damage spell.

[tsuruki]

Magical lineage + reach spell + harm + preferred spell facilitated a TPK in my game once.