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Wisdom Drain (Su) A lamia matriarch drains 1d4 points of Wisdom each time she hits with her melee touch attack. The first time each round that she strikes a foe with a melee weapon, she also drains 1 point of Wisdom. A DC 21 Will save negates the Wisdom drain. Unlike with other kinds of ability drain attacks, a lamia matriarch does not heal damage when she uses her Wisdom drain. The save DC is Charisma-based.
My hunch is that the Will save is for the drain that comes through the melee weapon attack, and that the Wisdom drain from the melee touch attack is not savable. Is this correct?
Wisdom Drain (Su) A lamia matriarch drains 1d4 points of Wisdom each time she hits with her melee touch attack. The first time each round that she strikes a foe with a melee weapon, she also drains 1 point of Wisdom. A DC 21 Will save negates the Wisdom drain. Unlike with other kinds of ability drain attacks, a lamia matriarch does not heal damage when she uses her Wisdom drain. The save DC is Charisma-based.My hunch is that the Will save is for the drain that comes through the melee weapon attack, and that the Wisdom drain from the melee touch attack is not savable. Is this correct?
I'd apply the save to both versions. They both fall under the "Wisdom Drain" entry. Are there other examples of unsavable drain like this? If so it'd make a stronger argument to treat them separately.
I would also apply the save to both, just like the exception in the next sentence stating the lamia matriarch doesn't heal damage when she uses her Wisdom drain.
I'm seeing two attacks there. Either two scimitars, or one touch attack (although I don't know why she couldn't do ONE scimitar AND a touch).
I did a scene where she was the head of a cult; she would drain all the men of their wisdom so that they were completely obedient to her, and they would fight "fight-club" style with one another for the privilege of being her next meal. I gave her a scroll of Obscuring Mist to make it interesting when the players showed-up. Good times.
My reading would be that either from of drain would allow the save.
While there are two separate sentences referring to the drain, the save is mentioned in a third sentence. For it to only refer to the second sentence the second sentence should have used a comma not a period.
HOWEVER I was not an English major so take my reading with a grain of salt.
this is correct
I'm seeing two attacks there. Either two scimitars, or one touch attack (although I don't know why she couldn't do ONE scimitar AND a touch).
Or two touches... Gasp D:
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I actually think that the save is only for the melee weapon, not the touch attack. Take a look at the standard lamia in Bestiary 1. It has the same ability but it DOESN'T have the ability to use it with a melee weapon and DOESN'T mention anything about a save. It doesn't make sense that the standard lamia's ability would be more powerful than the matriarch. Comparing the two creatures' abilities, it seems that the save is only for the weapon attack, while the touch attack remains like that of the lesser lamia with no save.
That's an excellent argument. In light of that, I'm going to revoke my earlier statement in this thread; as you say, it wouldn't make sense for the Matriarch to be worse at wisdom-draining than the rank-and-file Lamias :)
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I'd apply the save to both versions. They both fall under the "Wisdom Drain" entry. Are there other examples of unsavable drain like this? If so it'd make a stronger argument to treat them separately.
Strife brings up a good point that I forgot to consider. There are also a number of other creatures that provide an unsaveable drain found in the RotRL AP. I'm not going to disclose here, for obvious reasons. Suffice it to say, I'll return to my original position and say that the DC is for the weapon only.
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I don't see how the save doesn't apply to both. You have:Option A: Move and hit or full attack and hit. If any of the attacks hit the first one also uses Wisdom Drain (the special attack)
Option B: Melee touch for lower AC to go for more drain with Wisdom Drain (the special attack)
It then says: a DC 21 Will save negates the Wisdom Drain (referring to the special attack listed for both attacks). Its telling you what happens if you use the Wisdom Drain ability which is DC 21 save.
This is the Wisdom Drain entry from the Lamia:
Wisdom Drain (Su) A lamia drains 1d4 points of Wisdom each time it hits with its melee touch attack. (Unlike with other kinds of ability drain attacks, a lamia does not heal any damage when it uses its Wisdom drain.) Lamias try to use this power early in an encounter to make foes more susceptible to charm monster and suggestion.
It doesn't have the ability to deliver the Wisdom Drain via weapons. Note that there is no DC to save against the Wisdom Drain: if it makes a successful touch attack, you get drained...no save.
So, the Lamia Matriarch is different because it CAN deliver a drain via the weapon attack, except that the drain via the weapon attack may be avoided with a successful Will Save.
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Since a regular old lamia doesn't allow a save on touch, it speaks volumes about the intended interpretation.
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Don't open the spoiler unless you have already played through the RotRL AP or read through the AP:
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
The Lamia Hungerer and Most High Ceoptra don't have their saves for their wisdom drains. In fact, the hungerer's drain is administered via natural weapon attacks and these drains don't have saves.
If you can't read the spoiler, you've got incomplete information with which to come to your conclusion. Suffice it to say, the save DC for the Lamia Matriarch is for the drain from the weapon attack only.
Also at CR 8 ..I'm not an expert in how these CRs work out vs. levels, but I suspect even if it was a CR 20 vs. 15th level adventurers or whatever, who is going to beat a +16 touch? When it rolls a 2 vs. Mr. fighter that's an 18 touch which is only beat by deflection and such. That means you'll likely need an 18 dex and a +4 ring of protection (32k) or a lower dex and even stronger more expensive ring to avoid this. The group going up against one of these if they're 6th level or whatever stands no chance of beating that. You're pretty much auto zapping them to stupidity pretty quickly if you so chose.
At that level they have acces to magic that can repair that damage, plus, the ability to kill the lamia in th 1st round. Don't see it as a great problem. Without previous knowledge of the normal lamia, I read both of the attacks have the save, but I agree with the opinion of giving only the save to the weapon drain after reading the normal lamia stats.
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Well, for completeness of discussion then (and again, spoilered for those who wish to keep it secret):
Lamia-Kin, Hungerer (pg 410)
Melee bite +29 (2d8+10/19-20/x4 plus 2d6 acid damage and 2 Wisdom drain), 2 claws +29 (1d8+10 plus 2 Wisdom drain)
Wisdom Drain (su) A hungerer drains 2 points of Wisdom each time it strikes a foe with its bite or claw attacks. Unlike with other kinds of ability drain attacks, a hungerer does not heal any damage when it uses its Wisdom drain.
Most High Ceoptra (pg 359-360 & 404)
Melee +3 unholy dagger +29/+24/+19/+14 (1d6+12/17-20), 2 claws +26 (1d6+4), touch +21 (1d8 Wisdom)
Special Attacks [Most High Ceoptra] ... drains 1d8 points of Wisdom each time she hits with her touch attack.
No saves for Wisdom drain.
This isn't "what I think it should be", it's what it is. If you get hit by the touch attack, you don't get to avoid it with a save. It especially sucks if you get critted on the touch.
Gives a whole new meaning to "Bad Touch".
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Matt I understand where your argument is coming from on a grammatical standpoint, but as far as the CR argument is concerned I don't really think that it would have much impact if it was intended to allow a save on all iterations of the Wisdom drain or not. The Bestiaries are riddled with templates or extras you can apply to specific creatures that increase their power and abilities exponentially, all while only increasing their CR by +1, or sometimes by nothing. Suddenly allowing a save for a single ability that wasn't there before isn't going to drop a creature's CR at all. I agree that the ability is poorly worded, and I made a comment in the Bestiary 2 errata thread mentioning the benefits of rewording the ability to make it clear that the save is only for the weapon attack.
Wisdom Drain (Su) A lamia matriarch drains 1d4 points of Wisdom each time she hits with her melee touch attack. The first time each round that she strikes a foe with a melee weapon, she also drains 1 point of Wisdom. A DC 21 Will save negates the Wisdom drain. Unlike with other kinds of ability drain attacks, a lamia matriarch does not heal damage when she uses her Wisdom drain. The save DC is Charisma-based.My hunch is that the Will save is for the drain that comes through the melee weapon attack, and that the Wisdom drain from the melee touch attack is not savable. Is this correct?
The 1 wisdom drain does not allow a save. The 1d4 does. That is why it is listed in its own sentence.
I was thinking it was a 3.5 to Pathfinder thing, but the regular Lamia has no save either, and the 3.5 Matriarch had no save at all.
I'd have to agree that the save is only for the weapon hit rider effect. It would be very odd for the Matriarch to be the only Lamia that has a save on its touch, when it has the stronger version that goes through weapons. Also, the touch should be 1d6... based on the Runelords version.
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I was thinking it was a 3.5 to Pathfinder thing, but the regular Lamia has no save either, and the 3.5 Matriarch had no save at all.
I'd have to agree that the save is only for the weapon hit rider effect. It would be very odd for the Matriarch to be the only Lamia that has a save on its touch, when it has the stronger version that goes through weapons. Also, the touch should be 1d6... based on the Runelords version.
Some very good points. Makes me wonder if the reduction of the damage die was intentional or a copy-paste error. Or if the inclusion of a save for the matriarch at all was a mistake on a designer who was working with auto-pilot turned on.
Some very good points. Makes me wonder if the reduction of the damage die was intentional or a copy-paste error. Or if the inclusion of a save for the matriarch at all was a mistake on a designer who was working with auto-pilot turned on.
Also, the 3.5 version had 1 wisdom drain on every hit. Reducing that was probably a very good move (no point in 'touch'ing for 1d4 if you can get 1-4+ weapon hits in anyways).