I'm looking for some suggestions on how to best integrate a half-dragon template onto a party member. There will be an event that dovetails nicely into this happening on a player around level four. I want to figure out how to best apply the template without overpowering the character.
My initial thoughts are that it will be a a multi-level staged approach where it takes a few levels before all benefits are realized. The template would be applied in place of at least one character level. The character is a fighter now, so we would obviously be removing the additional feats gained at levels as well.
Anyone done this or have any thoughts on this?
I would suggest using the 3.5 dragon disciple prestige class. I think anything else would be way over powered.
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Eh, it's +2 CR, adding it in place of two levels should work.
I'd stagger it, giving him a lesser version (probably special defenses, claws and bite, no wings or breath weapon, +2 NA, +4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha), then a level of his Class, then upgrade it to the full version. He'll get some very nice stat mods for a Fighter and some immunities, but he won't get any extra HD, BAB, Feats, saves, or other class features directly, so I think it'd work out.
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While it's "CR +2" you must consider what you're applying to to. In truth that template it very overpowered for any melee combatant (which are usually the only ones that want it). It's not at all balanced, not even remotely.
It gives a +8 to strength, +6 to con, and +4 to natural armor. It's too good, even at the cost of two levels. Without giving your other players templates with similar power level boosts there just isn't a way to make it balanced.
You must either give everyone templates, or give no one templates or the party will be severly out of balance.
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While it's "CR +2" you must consider what you're applying to to. In truth that template it very overpowered for any melee combatant (which are usually the only ones that want it). It's not at all balanced, not even remotely.
It gives a +8 to strength, +6 to con, and +4 to natural armor. It's too good, even at the cost of two levels. Without giving your other players templates with similar power level boosts there just isn't a way to make it balanced.
Eh, a level each Barbarian and Alchemist can give a total of +8 Str, +4 Con, +4 AC and two HD, better saves (potentially +6 Fort, +2 Ref, +2 Will while raging), a Feat, a point of BAB, and a very nice skill selection. It's not an all-day bonus like Half-Dragon (and indeed, requires two rounds of buffing to set up), but Half Dragon is just the stat bonuses and a few ancillaries. Seems reasonable to me.
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Not at all, the temporary versus permanent thing is huge.
One level of barbarian might give him 10 rounds of rage per day, enough for 2 combats. Maybe. And the alchemist is similarly limited by use. And spending a round to buff up to that is an important factor in action economy. Don't underestimate the action economy cost or duration cost.
It's not reasonable, I know this because I had a half-dragon barbarian that ruined a campaign with it. It's just a ridiculously huge bonus to any melee character.
Also, the barbarians AC penalty from rage cancels out the bonus from the alchemist resulting in 0 AC gained.
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Not at all, the temporary versus permanent thing is huge.
It's certainly significant, yeah. I'm not sure it's as significant as those Save and BAB bonuses plus everything else you gain from leveling.
One level of barbarian might give him 10 rounds of rage per day, enough for 2 combats. Maybe. And the alchemist is similarly limited by use. And spending a round to buff up to that is an important factor in action economy. Don't underestimate the action economy cost or duration cost.
I'm not, I don't think. Again, I think that being on all the time is very nice, just that it's not unbalancing compared to all the other stuff you get from the level each of Barbarian and Alchemist.
Heck, isn't 'being on all the time, but not quite as good' one of the primary complaints about Fighters?
It's not reasonable, I know this because I had a half-dragon barbarian that ruined a campaign with it. It's just a ridiculously huge bonus to any melee character.
Half Dragon Barbarian might be a problem, for the same reason Barbarian/Alchemist can be a serious problem at low levels (Str 34 at 5th level is...definitely an issue). But that seems to me to be a synergy problem I don't think is quite as applicable with Fighter.
Also, the barbarians AC penalty from rage cancels out the bonus from the alchemist resulting in 0 AC gained.
I was counting that. I was also counting an Extract of Shield. Hence the 'two rounds to buff'.
Not at all, the temporary versus permanent thing is huge.It's certainly significant, yeah. I'm not sure it's as significant as those Save and BAB bonuses plus everything else you gain from leveling.
One level of barbarian might give him 10 rounds of rage per day, enough for 2 combats. Maybe. And the alchemist is similarly limited by use. And spending a round to buff up to that is an important factor in action economy. Don't underestimate the action economy cost or duration cost.I'm not, I don't think. Again, I think that being on all the time is very nice, just that it's not unbalancing compared to all the other stuff you get from the level each of Barbarian and Alchemist.
Heck, isn't 'being on all the time, but not quite as good' one of the primary complaints about Fighters?
It's not reasonable, I know this because I had a half-dragon barbarian that ruined a campaign with it. It's just a ridiculously huge bonus to any melee character.Half Dragon Barbarian might be a problem, for the same reason Barbarian/Alchemist can be a serious problem at low levels (Str 34 at 5th level is...definitely an issue). But that seems to me to be a synergy problem I don't think is quite as applicable with Fighter.
Also, the barbarians AC penalty from rage cancels out the bonus from the alchemist resulting in 0 AC gained.I was counting that. I was also counting an Extract of Shield. Hence the 'two rounds to buff'.
Save bonuses not withstanding, that +8 strength permanently is like having getting a +4 BAB (because it raises your to hit), it really only makes a difference in delaying your iteratives. The saves while nice, are usually of secondary concern to many melee fighters, as it is less often "their" problem and more the rest of the party's.
Ultimately, I think that if any barbarian or fighter is offered to exchange two levels of their base class for the half-dragon template that it would be a pretty obvious and easy choice for most of them. To me that signifies it being too strong.
I stand by my assessment that if you're going to offer such a template to the fighter, you should be willing to allow templates to all the other players or else it isn't fair.
The fighter as a class needs help, but he doesn't need help with combat. He does that just fine. Picking up half-dragon doesn't do anything but make him better at combat, which is unnecessary (unless you have a pouncing barbarian in the same party).
That is part of why I like the 3.5 version of the dragon disciple better in some ways than the PF version.
Yes, the PF version helps a caster whereas the 3.5 version would only hurt them. But it was a way to make your fighter, barbarian, or whatever into something wild and magical even though you weren't an extreme spellmiester. Plus, who wouldn't want to be a half-dragon? :)
Since it spread it out over 10 level, it wasn't overpowered. All 15th level characters are ridiculously powerful and can do amazing things. You also didn't fall behind since you did continue to gain levels. Your BaB, hitpoint, saves, etc... would still increase.
If you try to do it just as a template and decide that it is equivalent to 3 levels. Ok now you have a powerful 4th level fighter in a group of 7th level characters. He is a real glass cannon. His strength is so high he can do tremendous damage with a hit. But his hitpoints and saves (the 2 most important defenses) are much lower than typical.
Rather than giving him the template at 4th level, I would give him a SLA for a 1st level dragon-ish spell and allow him to start the 3.5 DD PrC. But that is my take on it.
Rather than giving him the template at 4th level, I would give him a SLA for a 1st level dragon-ish spell and allow him to start the 3.5 DD PrC. But that is my take on it.
I think that's probably the best way to handle it. Maybe trade the spell casting progression for an additional combat feat every 3rd level of DD (since that is an important part of the class and it still gives up something compared to straight fighter). His DD levels also wont count to qualify for fighter only feats.
The breath weapon isn't that bad (after all it's based on racial hit dice and I hope a fighter doesn't have those) but the permanent stat bonuses are boons that any other fighter would kill babies for. You could always make the character eat two levels, not gaining any benefits (maybe half the benefits at each level he has to eat. But again the stats are huge, you should make him like kill a dragon and bathe in the blood of it's heart to let him keep it, at least once/year to keep his dragon blood awake.