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In this thread, I ask for input on several firearm houserules. My goal is to get them inserted into a setting, where a large number of people can use them as, at the very least, an opening shot before wading into melee.
Houserule #1: The action to reload a gun barrel cannot be reduced to a free action.
Houserule #2: Shooting with a firearm no longer targets touch AC in the first increment. Instead, they ignore X amount of armor+natural armor, at all range increments. X is probably 4 or 5.
Houserule #3: Firearms are martial weapons. Characters with simple weapon proficiency can use Firearms without penalty, but the action to reload one increases by one step.
Houserule #4: Firearms have the standard 10 range increments for all projectile weapons.
A couple of thoughts of my own: This effectively replaces the crossbow once characters can afford it. It still has the issues that crossbows have in terms of damage scaling, and can't make multiple attacks a round without a pepperbox (which has its own complications once its barrels are empty).
Likely pricing will change. Firearm costs go down (1/2 or 1/4 price), as well as other supplements (alchemical cartridges especially, such that they're the common item: 1gp per round/5 rounds or so).
What else would need to change in order for you to want to use a firearm as:
A) a secondary weapon for any character, and
B) a gunslinger?
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Houserule #1: The action to reload a gun barrel cannot be reduced to a free action.
Between class features and feats a gunslinger should be able to make a full attack if they are otherwise allowed one.
Houserule #2: Shooting with a firearm no longer targets touch AC in the first increment. Instead, they ignore X amount of armor+natural armor, at all range increments. X is probably 4 or 5.
I've suggested to my group that adding +5 within the touch ac range as an OK substitute.
Houserule #3: Firearms are martial weapons. Characters with simple weapon proficiency can use Firearms without penalty, but the action to reload one increases by one step.
Are there other weapons that have special rules for non-proficiency? It seems to me that the Ultimate Combat suggestions for "Firearms in your Campaign" were sufficient.
Houserule #4: Firearms have the standard 10 range increments for all projectile weapons.
Guns don't have 10 range increments?
What else would need to change in order for you to want to use a firearm as:
A) a secondary weapon for any character, and
B) a gunslinger?
A & B) Cheaper and easier to use and maintain. Also stopping my DM's from wanting to deafen everybody when shots are fired in a dungeon.
I like the gun rules just fine as they stand but I will still answer your last question there.
A) For general secondary weapons, make sure that you don't need a super magical gun to hit and do damage (not a lot but a respectable little amount). This will allow higher level characters to switch guns to make multiple attacks because higher level characters can afford more guns.
B) For gunslingers, I would let them step up the AC and armor penetration past 4 at higher levels (specifically at the levels that they get gun training). Perhaps only do this at the first range increment to keep the gunslinger play style more or less the same, as it stands. They will still be particularly good at fighting stuff with high armor at close range that way. Note that the gunslinger class relies on greater accuracy in order to do damage. Their dex bonus to damage does not scale up in addition to normal attribute increases like the barbarian's rage or the fighter's weapon training. You must keep this in mind.
His version does ignore some armor still. They just ignore less armor than all. *shrugs*
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We use a system pretty similar to your houserule #2.
We call it PR (Penetration Rating).
All one-handed early firearms have a PR of 2 and all two-handed early firearms have a PR of 4, allowing them to bypass the first 2-4 points of AC from armor, natural armor, and shields.
PR is automatically increased by weapon enhancements. If you have a +2 Musket, you have PR 6.
We pretty much throw out misfires at this point, because they're terrible and they aren't needed as a balancing mechanic any more.
We also get rid of the Musket Master and Pistolero entirely since they are not balanced to the core class, and we fold their deeds into the core class to replace the deeds that used to exist for the sole purpose of mitigating misfires.
These changes have pretty much completely resolved any issues we've seen with the Gunslinger.
I think the others pretty much summed it up, however I thought I'd share one idea I had with you all.
In real history (as far as I can tell from basic knowledge) it appears to me that early guns were the exact opposite of the way Paizo presented them to be: wildly inaccurate but capable of devastating damage and very easy for anyone to learn to use them.
How does it seem to you?
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Houserule #1: The action to reload a gun barrel cannot be reduced to a free action.Between class features and feats a gunslinger should be able to make a full attack if they are otherwise allowed one.
Houserule #3: Firearms are martial weapons. Characters with simple weapon proficiency can use Firearms without penalty, but the action to reload one increases by one step.Are there other weapons that have special rules for non-proficiency? It seems to me that the Ultimate Combat suggestions for "Firearms in your Campaign" were sufficient.
Yes, based off the Bastard Sword model.
Houserule #4: Firearms have the standard 10 range increments for all projectile weapons.Guns don't have 10 range increments?
They do not.
If you're just going to nerf them into crossbows, why not play without them instead? Much simpler.
Because I want them to have a presence, but for the majority of people, they should be one-shot wonders. How would you accomplish that goal?
We use a system pretty similar to your houserule #2.
We call it PR (Penetration Rating).
All one-handed early firearms have a PR of 2 and all two-handed early firearms have a PR of 4, allowing them to bypass the first 2-4 points of AC from armor, natural armor, and shields.
PR is automatically increased by weapon enhancements. If you have a +2 Musket, you have PR 6.
We pretty much throw out misfires at this point, because they're terrible and they aren't needed as a balancing mechanic any more.
We also get rid of the Musket Master and Pistolero entirely since they are not balanced to the core class, and we fold their deeds into the core class to replace the deeds that used to exist for the sole purpose of mitigating misfires.These changes have pretty much completely resolved any issues we've seen with the Gunslinger.
What would you do to make guns attractive to someone who doesn't get a gunslinger's DEX to damage?
In real history (as far as I can tell from basic knowledge) it appears to me that early guns were the exact opposite of the way Paizo presented them to be: wildly inaccurate but capable of devastating damage and very easy for anyone to learn to use them.
How does it seem to you?
Well, in the current rules, anyone can just pick up a gun, fire it, and have it be wildly inaccurate (the -4 nonproficiency penalty), so there's that. How much more devastating is a bullet. To be fair, muskets were incredibly inaccurate just because they were made that way so they could reload faster during battle (more bullets in the air, and tons of bodies to hit worked more than the ability to aim). Even when barrel rifling was invented, it didn't become a mainstream war weapon (aside from sharp-shooter teams, perhaps?) due to the increased load time, until they figured out percussion caps and breach loading.
On the other hand, the gun rules seem to assume rifled accuracy, with smoothbore reload speeds and muzzle-loading. Perhaps because it's just not fun otherwise.
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@ Serum
Other than the Fighter archetype and the Gunslinger who provide Dex to damage, I'm not certain that further buffs are necessary (assuming you're using the PR rules I referenced). A ranged weapon with a very solid damage die and a x4 crit that ignores a chunk of AC is pretty solid, and most classes have some way of adding additional damage, whether that be a (Luring) Cavalier's Challenge, a Paladin's Smite, Rogue Sneak Attack, an Inquisitor's Bane and Judgement, etc. As well, there's feats like Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, and equipment options like the double-barreled versions of weapons. The Gunslinger or a gun-wielding archetype should be the best at using a gun, and I think Dex to damage reflects that. I've certainly seen builds utilize firearms under the PR rules without gaining Dex to damage and perform very competitively.
Houserule #1: The action to reload a gun barrel cannot be reduced to a free action.Between class features and feats a gunslinger should be able to make a full attack if they are otherwise allowed one.
Houserule #3: Firearms are martial weapons. Characters with simple weapon proficiency can use Firearms without penalty, but the action to reload one increases by one step.Are there other weapons that have special rules for non-proficiency? It seems to me that the Ultimate Combat suggestions for "Firearms in your Campaign" were sufficient.
Yes, based off the Bastard Sword model.
Houserule #4: Firearms have the standard 10 range increments for all projectile weapons.Guns don't have 10 range increments?They do not.
If you're just going to nerf them into crossbows, why not play without them instead? Much simpler.Because I want them to have a presence, but for the majority of people, they should be one-shot wonders. How would you accomplish that goal?
What would you do to make guns attractive to someone who...We use a system pretty similar to your houserule #2.
We call it PR (Penetration Rating).
All one-handed early firearms have a PR of 2 and all two-handed early firearms have a PR of 4, allowing them to bypass the first 2-4 points of AC from armor, natural armor, and shields.
PR is automatically increased by weapon enhancements. If you have a +2 Musket, you have PR 6.
We pretty much throw out misfires at this point, because they're terrible and they aren't needed as a balancing mechanic any more.
We also get rid of the Musket Master and Pistolero entirely since they are not balanced to the core class, and we fold their deeds into the core class to replace the deeds that used to exist for the sole purpose of mitigating misfires.These changes have pretty much completely resolved any issues we've seen with the Gunslinger.
Rifling ceases to be a 'reload' issue anytime you introduce the Minie Ball. The bullet is shaped almost like a modern bullet with a cupped base that expands to fill the barrel and engage the rifling. It would have been usable with any rifled firearm from a matchlock to a percussion cap. It takes a few weeks to turn a novice into an effective shooter with even a flintlock. Percussion caps, rifling, etc and you can train a killing machine in the same time.
Swordsman, Archer, phalanx fighter, etc years of training. I don't know how easy it is to learn magic however, other than making magic items (which seems to be a standardized assembly line process) I imagine it is harder to learn. Why not a magic revolver that automatically cleans and reloads after every shot? Have the spell built into the cylinder and each turn causes the 'runes' or whatever to reset the firearm. You could still reload regularly if an anti-magic field hit. Same with something like a Colt 1855 revolving rifle.
Being a gun fan (as mentioned above) I do have issues with the idea of muzzle loaders being used because they really aren't practical for a 6 second round based combat.
Thus I just move everyone to advanced firearms (revolvers, lever action rifles, etc). They cannot be loaded faster than a swift action (but since they hold 6 and 15 rounds respectively, who cares?)
I do also modify things such that you don't completely ignore armor+natural armor with them. You subtract the hardness of your bullet instead. I give lead a hardness of 6. Then there's steel 10 and adamantine 20. You can get pretty good at punching through armor, you just need to spend more.
Being a gun fan (as mentioned above) I do have issues with the idea of muzzle loaders being used because they really aren't practical for a 6 second round based combat.
Thus I just move everyone to advanced firearms (revolvers, lever action rifles, etc). They cannot be loaded faster than a swift action (but since they hold 6 and 15 rounds respectively, who cares?)
I do also modify things such that you don't completely ignore armor+natural armor with them. You subtract the hardness of your bullet instead. I give lead a hardness of 6. Then there's steel 10 and adamantine 20. You can get pretty good at punching through armor, you just need to spend more.
Steel and adamantine are too hard to engage the rifling. You'd need to swag the round with a softer metal and you'd need less of the adamantine or mithril or whatever. Still say say that a simple magic reload function would let anyone play a 'gunslinger' of course the rules for guns go against all common sense and experience but maybe there's something about magic that makes guns harder to use. Kind of an anti-commonsense and easy-use field. Yeah, that's the ticket.
As far as touch AC/armor penetration goes, I've been thinking of implementing the following in my group for our upcoming game:
Step 1:
Roll base weapon damage with your to-hit roll.
If the to-hit roll is not high enough to hit by itself, the attack can penetrate up to the damage roll in points of armor/natural armor.
Step 2 (may scrap this step if it slows things down too much:)
The attack damage is reduced by the amount of armor penetrated. If the damage is reduced below one, the attack is considered a miss.
Step 3:
Add any additional damage bonus that the attack receives, multiply for crits, etc.
So? neither are crossbows, muzzle loaders were actually faster to reload then the heavy crossbows they replaced. But D&D vastly increases the reload time for the sake of convenience.
While that may well be true, I've yet to see a soul bother to use a heavy crossbow anyway, so it hardly amounts to being a problem. Crossbows are so bad in game rules that past level 3 they might as well not exist.