Is Expanded Arcana useful for a "Utility" Sorcerer?

[LibraryRPGamer]

Hi Everyone,

Expanded Arcana:

Benefit: Add one spell from your class’s spell list to your list of spells known. This is in addition to the number of spells normally gained at each new level in your class. You may instead add two spells from your class’s spell list to your list of spells known, but both of these spells must be at least one level lower than the highest level spell you can cast in that class. Once made, these choices cannot be changed.

Special: You can only take this feat if you possess levels in a class whose spellcasting relies on a limited list of spells known, such as the bard, oracle, and sorcerer. You can gain Expanded Arcana multiple times.

I've read that Expanded Arcana is the worst feat EVER for sorcerers because:
1) lack of specialization for high spell DCs- forgo Spell Focus, Spell Specialization, etc.
2) lack of feats to improve the "vital" low-points for sorcerers - forgo Toughness, Dodge, etc.
3) forgo metamagic feats
4) It does not scale with higher levels

Now, this is very true for the traditional CC, damage, or any other sorcerer build that needs those high DCs so they can wreak havoc on the enemy.

But, what if...

A Sorcerer instead focuses on the arcane support (Enlarge Person, Haste, Protection from X, Animate Rope, etc.), utility (Mount, Image Spells, etc.) and various communal spells INSTEAD of the typical spells picked by every sorcerer.

Would this sorcerer benefit from Expanded Arcana because they do not need a high CHA or feats to increase spell DCs and can spend those resources elsewhere. Expanded Arcana would give them a wide variety of spells to they could help out in any situation.

Or, are other feats still better overall?

[Takhisis]

Expanded Arcane is actually not a terrible feat......if you pick it up by casting paragon surge. *trollface*

In all seriousness, though, Expanded Arcane is not TERRIBLE, but not optimal either. Some people get the idea that characters who are not the pinnacle of optimization are worthless and not worth playing. However, that's not always the case. You should never play a character who is so bad that they are a drag on the party, but, at least in most games, you don't need to be the super-OP'ed out builds you see people constantly praising either. Now, if your DM regularly runs heavily combat-oriented games with many challenging encounters, optimization becomes important, but that's not all tables. With the build you described above, your character would not be optimal, but probably not terrible either. In the case you mentioned you have a weaker(but not weak), yet fun character who would shine out of combat and be welcome for his buffs in combat. Whether or not such a build is "viable" depends totally on the kind of games your table runs.

Also, as noted before, Expanded Arcane is the absolute best feat for sorcerers to take...with paragon surge. No seriously. Paragon Surge + expanded arcana = spontaneous access to the entire wiz/sorc list for a sorcerer.

[sunbeam]

Depends I guess. I'd definitely take it if there were some spells I wanted in that level, and there was no other way to get them.

Even if I played a human, or other race that got the bonus spell.

An example is spell level 8. There are a lot of spells in that level I consider to be staples.

You will get one spell level 8 spell from your bloodline, and as a sorcerer you will eventually know 3.

But for me it is not enough.

I must have:

Polymorph any Object
Mind Blank (And I will cast it on myself every day, it is part of my religion)

Stuff I'd really like to have:

Protection from Spells
Greater Shadow Evocation
Moment of Prescience

And lots more I could see myself using a lot.

Not sure of the costs of the items that give you extra spells known when you get that high. And you could use staves. But even with the human bonus you can't know too many spells.

So yeah, I could see myself taking it. A few times actually.

Depends on your playstyle I guess. But it would be a heck of a feat to equal an 8th level spell. (Or two if you took the feat at 19th level)

[revaar]

The trouble with Expanded Arcana is the human favored class bonus basically makes it worthless. There is nothing wrong with expanding your spells known as a spontaneous caster, even if it is max level known -1. The human FCB gives you one every level, rather than 2 every other, which equals out the the same thing, but the FCB doesn't cost you your feat.

If you want to take expanded arcana, always take 2 spells of level known -1. It is tempting to get the max level known, say picking up fireball at level 7. But if you wait two levels, you can pick up fireball and haste. Two spells are always better than one.

If you really wanted to, you could take both the FCB and Expanded Arcana, and you could have a pretty sizable spell list. If you took every FBC and Expanded Arcana as every feat, you could end up having: 18 cantrips, 9 1st level, 9 second, 8 3rd, 8 4th, 8 5th, 7 6th, 7 7th, 8 8th, and (still) only 3 9th. That's 85 spells, compared to 43 known by standard sorcerers. That could be a spell list comparable to a wizard's. Of course, you spent all your feats to get it. Just using the FBC, you can still get 64 spells, which is nothing to sneeze at, and if you make good picks, could be all you will ever need.

[LibraryRPGamer]

I mostly play PFS, so, I was thinking that the extra spells could help out with being able to spontaneously cast something to benefit the party no mater what classes they are.

Does the fighter or barbarian want to do more damage? Enlarge Person.

Does the optimized PC with a 7 Str need a boost up the 20ft ledge? Animate Rope.

Does the party need to make a deal with a local magistrate? Communal Mount and successful bluff check to add a solid bargaining chip to the table.

And many more...

Paragon Surge is a great spell. But, it's a 3rd level spell - which means that the sorcerer will be 6th level and halfway through their career in PFS. So, I don't value it as highly as most. Good, but not ideal.

Considering that, is Expanded Arcana useful below level 12?

[andreww]

Expanded Arcana can be a decent right at particular points in your career where you find you want a spell from a particular level. It loses utility as you level up unless you are able to retrain the choices you made with it. I sometimes take it once or twice but not often and hardly at all if paragon surge is allowed. It can be useful at 18+ because 3 level 9 spells just isn't enough. I still wouldn't take it more than once, maybe twice.

[LibraryRPGamer]

revaar wrote:

If you really wanted to, you could take both the FCB and Expanded Arcana, and you could have a pretty sizable spell list. If you took every FBC and Expanded Arcana as every feat, you could end up having: 18 cantrips, 9 1st level, 9 second, 8 3rd, 8 4th, 8 5th, 7 6th, 7 7th, 8 8th, and (still) only 3 9th. That's 85 spells, compared to 43 known by standard sorcerers. That could be a spell list comparable to a wizard's. Of course, you spent all your feats to get it. Just using the FBC, you can still get 64 spells, which is nothing to sneeze at, and if you make good picks, could be all you will ever need.

This is more of the sorcerer build I had in mind.

What would be "good picks" for spells? Remember, without Spell Focus, the sorcerer's DCs will be on the low side.

Also, how high of a CHA would you need to go this rout?

[Gregory Connolly]

Honestly I think the concept you have might be better as a bard than a sorcerer. If you aren't concerned about high DCs then the added utility of more skill points, more hp, better reflex saves, better weapons, casting in light armor and shields, and bardic music may more than make up for the slightly slower spell access and different list. Or you might really want a sorcerer, but I have never seen one played without a max casting stat, so I really don't know how to do that.

[andreww]

If you are determined to do this I would still recommend two non expanded arcana feats. Improved Initiative or Noble Scion of War is pretty much a must, whether buffing or battlefield controlling. You will most likely be Arcane Blooded as it adds even more spells so you also get either a familiar or switch your casting stat to Int. Personally I like the latter, that was you can be the skill monkey and the utility caster. Take Student of Philosophy and dump charisma.

The second you will really want is persistent spells. Your base DC's will be lower but with persistent you are forcing multiple saves significantly increasing the chance of landing the spell. Given the number of spells you have you will also be able to pick up ones targeting every save. I recommend the following for the first few levels:

Buffs:

Enlarge Person
Invisibility
Communal...any of them really but Resist Energy and Prot Alignment
Greater Invisibility
Liberating Command
Mage Armour
Darkvision
Daylight
Haste
Fly

Offence:

Grease/Create Pit/Glitterdust/Aqueous Orb/Stinking Cloud/Black Tentaccles

While most of these allow some form of save they have several additional benefits. All of them ignore spell resistance making them useful against many enemies, Also all of them have some form of addition effect. Something might save against Create Pit but it is still there getting in the way, Stinking Cloud still blocks line of sight, Tentacles still act as difficult terrain etc.

Some form of aoe damage spell. Fireball, Dragons Breath, Burning Hands, it doesn't really matter which but something to helps against swarms is a must.

Some form of mental control, charm, suggestion, anything really. Yes your DC wont be jacked up high but it doesn't matter if targeting a weak save. At level 10 with a starting post racial stat of 18 and a +4 headband a suggestion to a CR10 fire giant that it just go home and stop bothering everyone has a 50% chance of success. Make it persistent and that goes to 75%.

Command Undead: Mindless undead get no save, this is great for grabbing minions and it lasts a day per level.

Defence:

Don't neglect the basic defensive spells. Mage Armour is better as a spell known as you will run out of wand charges if you try and keep it up. Shield is a great wand spell. Mirror Image, Magic Circle, Emergency Force Sphere and Overland Flight also all work exceptionally well.

Utility:

There are loads of more situational but useful spells which you can grab if you have loads of spells known. Lots of divinations will make life easier, Detect Thoughts, Clairvoyance, Arcane Eye all work very well. Scouting spells also come in extremely helpful, Elemental Body I being quite possibly the best spell for this ever.

[Wiggz]

LibraryRPGamer wrote:

I mostly play PFS, so, I was thinking that the extra spells could help out with being able to spontaneously cast something to benefit the party no mater what classes they are.

Does the fighter or barbarian want to do more damage? Enlarge Person.

Does the optimized PC with a 7 Str need a boost up the 20ft ledge? Animate Rope.

Does the party need to make a deal with a local magistrate? Communal Mount and successful bluff check to add a solid bargaining chip to the table.

And many more...

Paragon Surge is a great spell. But, it's a 3rd level spell - which means that the sorcerer will be 6th level and halfway through their career in PFS. So, I don't value it as highly as most. Good, but not ideal.

Considering that, is Expanded Arcana useful below level 12?

The Paragon Surge thing has always smacked of cheese to me, but that's for every person to decide for themselves.

We never play PFS so I don't have that perspective to offer you but we have had a Sorcerer in our group who was built very similarly to what you're talking about - Human, FCB - but with a bit of a twist. Again, I don't know how much of this is PFS legal so take it for what it is.

He went 'Wild-blooded' Fey-Sylvan to get an Animal Companion to kind of serve as a bodyguard so that the other PC's didn't have to worry so much about him, and then he used one of his bloodline feats to take Knowledge: Nature which served as a pre-requisite for the Arcane bloodline via Eldritch Heritage feats. Taking that route you'll get a lot of the benefits you're looking for and more, but some of them won't kick in until after 12th level. Something like this:

Feats:
1st - Eschew Materials
1st - Boon Companion
1st - Toughness
3rd - Spell Focus (Player's choice)
5th - Greater Spell Focus (Player's choice)
7th - Persistent Spell
7th - Skill Focus: Knowledge (Nature)*
9th - Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bloodline (Arcane Bond)
11th - Improved Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bloodline (New Arcana)
13th - Dazing Spell
13th - Quicken Spell*
15th - Spell Perfection (Player's choice)
17th - Greater Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bloodline (School Power - Player's choice)
19th - Expanded Arcana (9th level spell)
19th - Improved Initiative*

Arcane Bond will give you an item that allows you to cast 1 extra spell per day of the highest level you can cast while New Arcana works like three separate Expanded Arcana feats. You still get the benefits of things like Spell Focus and Spell Perfection as well as popular Sorcerer feats like Toughness.