So, what if there was a class that specialized in them? The idea is based (very, very, loosely) on the class of the same name from Fire Emblem for those who have heard of it.
Here is the Swordmaster for your viewing pleasure
The Swordmaster uses a combination of Deeds like the Gunslinger and Swashbuckler, and bonus feats like the Ranger. A couple of specific things I'm looking for feedback and ideas on are:
Thank you all in advance for your comments!
Badly, and I mean really badly in need of proofreading/editing, sorry but that makes it very hard to follow. It still says gunslinger in a number of places where I believe you probably meant to change the class wording, it says panache in places where you probably meant to say deeds, etc. For example:
Unparalleled Swordsmanship (ex): At 20th level, a Swordmaster picks two deeds that she has access to and that she must spend insight to perform. She can perform these deeds for 1 insight point fewer (minimum 0) than usual. If the number of insight points to perform a deed is reduced to 0, the gunslinger can perform this deed as long as she has at least 1 insight point. If a deed could already be performed as long as she had at least 1 insight point, she can now perform that deed even when she has no insight.
You've mashed together a ranger, gunslinger, and something else and made one of the main class features rely on high Int. Is that wise?
Adept maneuvers (ex): At 3rd level a Swordmaster can spend 1 point from her Insight pool a Swordmaster may attempt a combat maneuver for free as part of an attack action. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Um no, just no. (And by that I mean this becomes free when chosen at 20th level)
Branching Way (ex): The Swordmaster may choose a second Way of the Sword at 12th level. She counts as her Swordmaster level -11, to determine her access to Deeds and bonus feats, including level related effects.
May? Why isn't this just part of the Way of the Sword feature? In any case, it's too much.
Calm Mind (ex): At 16th level, a Swordmaster may roll twice and take the higher result when resisting mind affecting effects. She gains a +2 bonus on the reroll. This decision may be made before or after the roll is made.
Sure it's not until 16th level, but I think it's a bit overboard. Especially since you're giving Iron Will as a bonus feat by calling it Disciplined Mind.
Bear in mind, these are just my opinions. If you and/or your players want to take a crack at it, good luck.
Yay, my first threadcrapping out of the way! but I was kind of hoping for suggestions on improvements rather than what really boils down to "this thing sucks."
Editing as I type here, I guess this many mistakes are what happens when most of my work on something takes place at 2:00-3:00 a.m.
I really don't see the problem with Adept Maneuvers honestly. It doesn't give a bonus to them, most of the Bestiary doesn't care about combat maneuvers, and I feel that they need some love the way they are now. And an untrained combat maneuver for free at level 20 doesn't sound like it's even worth taking to me. At level 20, there are way better things to be doing.
BTW: Disregard the mention of a Gnoll Bonesaw, that's just a homebrew weapon I decided to throw in there for my group.
and made one of the main class features rely on high Int. Is that wise?
Do you forsee any problems using Int as a secondary stat? I'd like to know these things, because "as I always ask here, are there any glaring flaws or exploits that I'm not seeing?"
El Bumpo? I know this needs some work, but that's why I cleaned it up and am posting here. For example, I nerfed Disciplined Mind and Calm Mind, but how do things like the Style feats, and Edgemaster look?
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Yay, my first threadcrapping out of the way! but I was kind of hoping for suggestions on improvements rather than what really boils down to "this thing sucks."
If you're going to refer to any type of criticism as threadcrapping then I don't see why you bother posting stuff like this. A slung together class that is just cut and pasted from other Pathfinder classes/options without being cleaned-up is ugly. If you don't want feedback, don't post. It really is that simple.
Do you forsee any problems using Int as a secondary stat? I'd like to know these things, because "as I always ask here, are there any glaring flaws or exploits that I'm not
Int is generally a dump stat for melee characters. If you need to build a melee character to use Int then you probably need to be able to dump something else. If you don't mind having a class that is considered "MAD" then so be it, just be ready for more "threadcrapping" I guess.
If you like the class and would play it in your home games then do so. I made a class myself for use in my home games. It's not crazy powerful and it's not balanced but it has a cool feel to it. I wouldn't put it up for others to look at because I'm not seeking validation for my ideas.
The write-up is very confusing. I had to go back and forth a bunch. Here's my suggestions for clean-up, just for starters.
1) Just add Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate to the list of class skills. Ain't no big deal, and it will clean up Way Of The Sword.
2) Try this:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Swordmaster is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (except tower shields).
It will save you a lot of grief, and not sacrifice your vision. Also, I think every full-BAB class has proficiency in all simple and martial weapons. Why exactly can a swordmaster quickdraw weapons she isn't proficient in? Make the choice of using a shield or not using a shield important, instead of simply denying proficiency. Is there a benefit to not using a shield, or is it just not allowed?
3) As Simon Legrande pointed out, do NOT stop proofreading. Re-read everything. Add punctuation. Decide what is bold, italicized, what is a larger font, etc. You have class features in boldface, but some of the bolder items are not the names of class features. Be consistent.
4) Put Way Of The Sword Before Deeds. Putting WOTS deeds before WOTS is confusing.
5) Quick Draw. I'm not saying I'm never guilty of using feats as class features, but as its been said 1001 times before, feats don't make very good class features. Also, why is the swordmaster so good at drawing ANY weapon, especially if he is proficient in just some of them?
6) Deeds, just a sampling. Lighting Aim: why are we throwing away our swords? Eagle Eyes: +2 to Appraise, which is not a class skill? Flash Step: for the price of 1 point, it might as well not provoke. Also, you're almost requiring investment in a skill. Its called a skill tax, which should be done sparingly.
Thats it for now.
Yay, my first threadcrapping out of the way! but I was kind of hoping for suggestions on improvements rather than what really boils down to "this thing sucks."If you're going to refer to any type of criticism as threadcrapping then I don't see why you bother posting stuff like this. A slung together class that is just cut and pasted from other Pathfinder classes/options without being cleaned-up is ugly. If you don't want feedback, don't post. It really is that simple.
Do you forsee any problems using Int as a secondary stat? I'd like to know these things, because "as I always ask here, are there any glaring flaws or exploits that I'm notInt is generally a dump stat for melee characters. If you need to build a melee character to use Int then you probably need to be able to dump something else. If you don't mind having a class that is considered "MAD" then so be it, just be ready for more "threadcrapping" I guess.
If you like the class and would play it in your home games then do so. I made a class myself for use in my home games. It's not crazy powerful and it's not balanced but it has a cool feel to it. I wouldn't put it up for others to look at because I'm not seeking validation for my ideas.
I should clarify, I wasn't referring to you, but, the poster after you who didn't offer much in the way of ideas. Int as a dump stat was what I was trying to avoid, that whole "me fitr, me am smash, etc..." I will continue the clean-up, though. My apologies for the confusion, but I did take some of your critiques to heart.
And It isn't "validation" I'm looking for, so much as advice from the more experienced players, as I have been playing for just over a year now.
Valid issues.
The reason I used such an unusual method for weapon proficiencies was mostly to add some more flavor to the class, which as has been noted, is lacking. Same for Quick Draw, you make a good point about it, but since I plan on changing the proficiencies the way you suggest, would it be better to keep it, or drop it? I'm leaning towards keep.
With Eagle Eyes, I just felt that a bonus to Appraise would be handy every once in a while. On the subject of skills, I had some as Way exclusive because, again, flavor reasons (I just can't seem to put that where it belongs can I?). If it would be better mechanically, then I don't really have a problem moving them.
Lightning Aim was to allow a neat trick for the rare moment someone would want to throw their sword, or for those people who carry around a few daggers or so. And because I couldn't think of a better class unique 1st level deed. Would flash step be better with a 2 or more point cost, or is it just generally gonna be OP as-is?
Once more, continuing editing, taking notes, wanting to accept criticism, please continue.
EDIT: Remembered why I didn't simply say "Proficient with all swords, or these deeds/bonus feats only work with a sword." I was worried there would be some issue defining what exactly counts as a "sword" in a simple fashion. Thinking back, that's a bit silly, but at 3:00 a.m. sounds incredibly serious. Fixed.
Barbarian gets Intimidate, sorcerer gets Bluff, cleric gets diplomacy, bard gets them all plus more. The class skill list says something about the flavor of the class, and its something I spend time thinking about and modifying, even though its a lesser point compared to class features. If your class is meant to be a killed speaker, then include all three. If he's a bully, add Intimidate, etc. Its completely up to you. But personally, I don't see why a guy with a greatsword has to be scary instead of diplomatic.
Well, I have to agree with that analysis (although a killed speaker, couldn't have been that great about it.) and I do believe that diplomacy has the best feel to it for me.
EDIT: course now I need to replace the skill focus thing. hmmm...
I should clarify, I wasn't referring to you, but, the poster after you who didn't offer much in the way of ideas. Int as a dump stat was what I was trying to avoid, that whole "me fitr, me am smash, etc..." I will continue the clean-up, though. My apologies for the confusion, but I did take some of your critiques to heart.
That's fine, but this is the Internet and not all feedback is going to be helpful. If you base the main class feature on Int then players are going to need a hefty point sink in Int to make the deed mechanic even worth it. You're talking a 14 Int to be somewhat useful and 16 Int to be useful and I don't know that Edgemaster is going to make up for that. Edgemaster only adds to damage, not to hit and dropping Str for Int is going to hurt BAB in the long run. The fact that Edgemaster doesn't stack/scale only adds to that.
Last but not least, you have a full BAB class with two good saves and a class feature at every level. IMO, that's just too much.
The ranger and paladin are full-bab with two good saves and have class features every level. Same with the gunslinger upon whom this is more or less based. I'm not saying this new class is balanced - its too early to tell - but please explain.
Last but not least, you have a full BAB class with two good saves and a class feature at every level. IMO, that's just too much.
Really? I got the opposite advice on feature addition on the last class I made. and looking at the core base classes, the only ones who don't get something new or improved each level are full-casters, who still technically get more spells. I do agree on Edgemaster being a bit lackluster as-is, would it go overboard if it stacked on the same weapon, and added the bonus to hit?
My thinking was that people would make critical hits frequently enough to be able to keep their insight up with some careful management. I also briefly considered making it a ki pool.
The ranger and paladin are full-bab with two good saves and have class features every level. Same with the gunslinger upon whom this is more or less based. I'm not saying this new class is balanced - its too early to tell - but please explain.
Really? I got the opposite advice on feature addition on the last class I made. and looking at the core base classes, the only ones who don't get something new or improved each level are full-casters, who still technically get more spells.
If you don't think it's too much, then maybe it isn't for you. To me it just seems a bit much and could stand to be scaled back a bit. That's just me.
Minor note: Critical Hit and Killing Blow should read "gains one insight point" not "regains one insight point." It's just a bit cleaner and flows better.
Another note: I suppose I can see insight stacking with/sharing levels with panache, but it doesn't seem to fit with gunslingers and grit thematically. This class is focused on hand-to-hand combat with a bladed weapon, I don't see how guns fit. I understand the mechanics are similar, but I don't think they should stack.
I see what you mean about Panache and Grit, but if they stack with each other, why wouldn't insight stack with both of them? I'll change the wording, but it feels strange that x, y, and z (Grit, Panache, and Insight) lead to the same "heroic pool" (words from the swashbuckler class description)but, x, and z are exclusive from each other.
Alrighty then, so far for potential changes, I've got:
I should note that my idea about what qualifies as balanced is a class that is roughly on par with the Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger, as they really show what I think a martial class should be capable of. How does this class seem to stack up to them as of now? I'm afraid I'm a bit biased on this one.
Alrighty then, so far for potential changes, I've got:
Edgemaster as a bonus to hit and damage based on Int, as opposed to just damage.
Allowing it to stack with itself, although I worry about balancing it if I use this in combination with the last point.
and a way to make Disciplined mind/Calm Mind be helpful, but not Iron Will as a class ability.
I should note that my idea about what qualifies as balanced is a class that is roughly on par with the Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger, as they really show what I think a martial class should be capable of. How does this class seem to stack up to them as of now? I'm afraid I'm a bit biased on this one.
I would be careful with that int to attack rolls. If that swordmaster hits level 5 and has an okay int, then it will be pretty soundly outpacing fighters and barbarians in terms of accuracy.
If you are going to go that route, I think you should allow them to add their int to attack rolls up to a maximum of 1 at 5th level and then to a max of an additional plus 1 at each level of edgemaster (to a maximum of +4 when you get edgemaster 4). That way she'll never outpace fighter in accuracy really. She will be doing more or less damage than a fighter depending on the size of the game's point buy, though.
Have you looked at the Swordmaster from Dreadfox Games? It may have some interesting abilities you might like.
I hadn't considered a scaling bonus based on Int, like a reverse Canny Defense. That's a very good middle ground.
Have you looked at the Swordmaster from Dreadfox Games? It may have some interesting abilities you might like
Do you mean the tengu rogue archetype? That's all I could find on the SRD, and if so, I do believe I incorporated something similar by allowing the style feats as bonus feats. If not, could I get a link? It sounds interesting.
If you don't think it's too much, then maybe it isn't for you. To me it just seems a bit much and could stand to be scaled back a bit. That's just me.
I hope I didn't come across as confrontational, and am legitimately curious why you think that. If you share that, I might learn something.
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Why not make disciplined mind and calm mind just be an int bonus to will saves after the check is made that first costs 2 insight points and then 1 point at 16.
I like your ideas Excaliburproxy, I've incorporated them into the class. Next up is finding a better implementation of the Flash Step deed. The simplest solution is to increase the insight cost to 2 points, but is it the best? At 3rd level that'll be the majority of their pool, if not the entire thing.
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Here's an idea I had to clarify. Hope it is helpful.
Way of the Sword (Ex): The swordmaster selects a a weapon style. It is her philosophy by which her swordcraft will bring her to enlightenment. She must select two-handed weapon style, one-handed weapon style, or two-weapon style. Once this choice has been made, it cannot be changed.
Two-Handed Weapon Style, Way of the Great Blade:
Swordmasters who select this style are grim and seek finality, for all things that begin must end, and as a conduit of the universe this is her duty. She adds Intimidate to her list of class skills, and gains bonus feats in addition to those gained from normal advancement. At 2nd, 6th, and 10th level, she can choose from the following list: Archon Style, Boar Style, Cleave, Power Attack, Pushing Assault, Shield of Swings.
At 4th level she gains Skill Focus: Intimidate as a bonus feat.
At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list of those that can be gained as bonus feats: Archon Diversion, Boar Ferocity, Furious Focus, Great Cleave, and Whirlwind Attack. At 10th level the following feats are added to the list: Archon Justice, Boar Shred, Dragon Style, Dreadful Carnage, and Improved Sunder.
Two-Weapon Combat Style, Way of the Twin Blade:
Swordmasters who select this style are mercurial and seek the meeting of halves, for what is called lie and truth is but a veil across which ultimate truth has been cast. She adds Bluff to her list of class skills, and gains bonus feats in addition to those gained from normal advancement. At 2nd, 6th, and 10th level, she can choose from the following list: Double Slice, Monkey Style, Panther Style, Snake Style, and Two-Weapon Fighting.
At 4th level she gains Skill Focus: Bluff as a bonus feat.
At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list of those that can be gained as bonus feats: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Monkey Moves, Panther Claw, Snake Sidewind, and Two-Weapon Defense At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Monkey Shine, Panther Parry, Snake Fang, Two-Weapon Rend.
One-Handed Combat Style, Way of the Lone Blade:
Swordmasters who select this style are enduring and seek ascension for herself and others in the body, mind, heart, and spirit. She gains bonus feats in addition to those gained from normal advancement. At 2nd, 6th, and 10th level, she can choose from the following list: Combat Expertise, Crane Style, Dragon Style, Panther Style, Power Attack, Vital Strike, and Weapon Finesse.
At 4th level she gains Skill Focus: Diplomacy as a bonus feat.
At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list of those that can be gained as bonus feats: Crane Wing, Dragon Ferocity, Improved Critical, Improved Vital Strike, Lunge, Panther Claw, Spring Attack, and Weapon Specialization. At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list: Crane Riposte, Dragon Roar, Greater Vital Strike, Panther Parry.
really cool ideas
Well, now, I like this. It gives a bit more flavoring to each Way, and cleans up the presentation. I'll be updating the doc. shortly.
Some of it is still clunky. Go over the fluff text and make it your own.
Joo gotit mang.
Flavorizing...
I was also considering a mounted combat Way of the Sword called the "High Blade" but I kinda puttered out on that one. Mostly, I couldn't think of enough feats that fit thematically/mechanically, or deeds for it. Might try to bring it back if the rest of the class is more or less sorted out.
Also, Way of the Sword has been flavorized, and edited for great flow.
Good job on the re-fluff. Looks like Lone Blade didn't get a Skill Focus.
With your focus on swords, you're going to have to compile a list of all weapons the class features work with. I would either create a one list for core-book swords and one for splat-book swords, or create a master list and add a * next to non-core swords.
The way you have Insight written, it looks as though "critical hit with a sword" and "killing blow with a sword" are actually class features instead of sub-headings of Insight. Also, on a personal note, I'm not a fan of Insight as a name for the point pool.
Whoops! Missed the skill focus. a one-handed, one-weapon guy would fall behind enough as is.
I did have a list of weapons that the feats and deeds worked with in version 1.1, but scrapped it hoping "works with swords" was enough.
I simply used what I though was the way it was written with the gunslinger on the note of "killing blow/critical hit."
You know? I agree about the name Insight, but the only other thing I could think of for a name was Wit, and that felt worse. How about acumen?
You can fix the sub-headings under Insight by getting rid of bold-face and using another way to draw attention to it. You can use italics, or begin with a hyphen or bullet point.
I like Acumen better than Insight. Give it some time though.
For the weapons, I'm contemplating a table that lists which weapons "count" as swords for which deeds, and WotS.
I would make a list, like the ones you had before in each WOTS. But this time I would combine them. Don't separate them by which WOTS is chosen. Instead, provide incentive for a character to stick with her WOTS.
ech, I was afraid of that. Pouring through tomes I go! For some reason the Lone Blade gives me pause about this list, should a Swordmaster who takes that WotS be given the option to use their one handed weapon in two? I'm leaning towards yes.
I was also considering a mounted combat Way of the Sword called the "High Blade" but I kinda puttered out on that one. Mostly, I couldn't think of enough feats that fit thematically/mechanically, or deeds for it. Might try to bring it back if the rest of the class is more or less sorted out.
Also, Way of the Sword has been flavorized, and edited for great flow.
The special insight ability at level 7 could let long swords, bastard swords, and great swords (or others you choose) deal x2 damage on a mounted charge like a lance does. Then the feats could be all the various and sundry charging feats.
Last but not least, you have a full BAB class with two good saves and a class feature at every level. IMO, that's just too much.
Erm, you mean, like the Ranger and the Paladin?
==Aelryinth
I lieu of poring through books - a task i would not undertake, I suggest one of the following:
1) remove the restriction on swords. Its the opposite of your theme, but it makes things easier.
2) stick to the "classic" swords: dagger, short sword, long sword, bastard sword, and greatsword.
3) stick with only the CRB swords. This would add rapier, scimitar, kukri, falchion, two-bladed sword, possibly some others.
4) make a concession for any exotic weapon acquired with a feat to be added to a list.
Last but not least, you have a full BAB class with two good saves and a class feature at every level. IMO, that's just too much.
Erm, you mean, like the Ranger and the Paladin?
==Aelryinth
I hope I didn't come across as confrontational, and am legitimately curious why you think that. If you share that, I might learn something.
I took no offense at your post Ciaran. I am a big fan of simplicity. I understand some people love to pile options on top of options and then sprinkle some more options on top. That's fine if that's what you're into.
To me, and it's probably just me, this doesn't feel like the Paladin or the Ranger. It feels like the Paladin + the Ranger. As interesting as it may look it's just not a class that I would play.
Last but not least, you have a full BAB class with two good saves and a class feature at every level. IMO, that's just too much.
Erm, you mean, like the Ranger and the Paladin?
==Aelryinth
I hope I didn't come across as confrontational, and am legitimately curious why you think that. If you share that, I might learn something.I took no offense at your post Ciaran. I am a big fan of simplicity. I understand some people love to pile options on top of options and then sprinkle some more options on top. That's fine if that's what you're into.
To me, and it's probably just me, this doesn't feel like the Paladin or the Ranger. It feels like the Paladin + the Ranger. As interesting as it may look it's just not a class that I would play.
That's unfortunate. I try to make every class I write fun for as many people as possible, but differences in opinion happen.
That's unfortunate. I try to make every class I write fun for as many people as possible, but differences in opinion happen.
And that's all it is really. It's an interesting niche class to be sure, but it just goes over my complexity threshold.
That being said, it does look much cleaner now and flows a lot better than the first draft.
Got a preliminary version of this list of what wotks with deeds and bonus feats, hows it look?
Dot for possible later.
Dot as well, like to see where this goes. Not a fan myself of super-focused classes but I have a friend who is always looking to make the perfect swordsman.
Any Swords I'm missing in my list, or is this much enough?
On a different note, how does the class appear to do in comparison to other martial classes? Too well? Lags behind?
EDIT: Also, could Dragon Style stand to be given earlier in the Great Blade bonus feat options, or would that be a too early?
Any Swords I'm missing in my list, or is this much enough?
On a different note, how does the class appear to do in comparison to other martial classes? Too well? Lags behind?
EDIT: Also, could Dragon Style stand to be given earlier in the Great Blade bonus feat options, or would that be a too early?
It wouldn't be the end of the world if you moved it earlier. It is possible to qualify for that feat at level 3, anyways.
That much is true, I'm mostly concerned with the ability to ignore about half the things that stop a charge. Everywhere I look I see folks using distance as a balancing factor for two-handed fighters, and even though it's my favorite melee style, I don't want to widen the gap between it and the other WotS.
But dragon style sounds cool, so maybe 6th?
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I don't think it would be game-breaking either way. 6th sounds fine.
Fun fact: I love getting slightly intelligent mounts with the human's alternate racial class feature so they can learn kung fu right away and charge through difficult terrain.
So, I'm still curious to see how folks think this class stacks up to some of the other Martials.
Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (Nature) (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str)
This is a 4 + Int skill class, who has incentive to pump intelligence. Your skill list is starting to look thin. I would add 2-3 skills.
What is the duration on disorienting blow? The duration for different effects should probably be different.
As for power: I think you have made a more powerful version of a monk that uses swords in a lot of ways (with the attacks creating status effects and fighting styles). Tricky, practiced blade, flash of the blade, and opportunistic are all probably too good for various reasonst. Weirdly, the lone sword is weakest in terms of deeds when it is actually the one that needs the most help to be viable.
With the deeds I mentioned, it is probably in the very highest tiers of melee damage builds as it stands even without doing weird stuff like charging on dinosaurs or dual wielding revolvers.