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Scenario: human warrior with spear and shield braces with a spear against an orc 30 feet away.
Question: Given that the Brace ability gives you a benefit *if* the target charges, and let's say the orc does not charge, but rather uses a regular move action to approach...
Do you still get to attack the orc without the benefit of Brace, or does the action of Bracing Against a Charge mean that you cannot attack the orc if he does not charge?
Thanks!
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Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
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Brace: If you use a readied action to set a brace weapon against a charge, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging character (see Combat).
You are readying an action that is triggered by a specific action of the enemy, so you can use your readied action only if he take the specified action.
Note that you can still take your AoO with the readied weapon without losing the readied action.
As a GM I would allow you to ready your action against "an enemy that charge in my reach", I would not require you to specific "I set my brace weapon against the third orc on the left".
So basically...there is no point in bracing weapons against intelligent opponents. Because why ever charge if they are bracing. Which means all you've done (especially if you have a non reach brace weapon like a regular spear) is waste your readied action.
There is still some good usage to come from a brace weapon.
A build such as RAGELANCEPOUNCE would suffer greatly against an opponent with a Brace weapon.
I'd also recommend that you read the Brace wording carefully. It says that you "set a brace weapon against a charge"; in essence, it's safe to say that the intent of that statement is you ready an Attack Action against the creature making a charge against you, in which case the effects of Brace applies.
You take the Greater Vital Strike feat chain with a high crit-range/multiplier Brace weapon, and you have a creature that Pounces on you (one of the only "smart" method of charging) dead before they can even land a hit on you (assuming it doesn't have more reach than you do, in which case Brace wouldn't do you any good anyway).
In addition, I always thought Brace only worked on a Mounted Creature. Good to know the Brace property is a lot more useful than I thought...
I dunno. I guess my point is that, under a strict interpretation of the rules Bracing Against a Charge is a specified readied action to attack a foe that charges you. Any foe with half a brain will not do so as they see you are bracing.
So in this scenario the Orc sees the human is bracing, decides just to jog up to him and attack, and the human has wasted his readied action because the specified trigger to set off the readied attack has not occurred. And since he is using a regular spear, not a longspear, he doesn't even get an aoo.
Like some others have suggested, I think I will house rule it so that the human readies an attack against a foe that comes into reach, and if that foe happens to be charging then the brace is set off.
I'm just a little disappointed in the RAW on this.
Do the rules indicate that an opponent can tell that you're readying a specific action?
Personally, since combat is hectic and all actions in a round technically take place simultaneously during a 6-second period, someone who wanted to notice that a foe was readying an action against them - any action - would need to make a Perception check.
This has come up before.
Very frustrating because you either:
-Ready an attack for when opponent comes within reach in which case the enemy charges you.
OR
-Brace against a charge in which case the enemy moves then attacks.
One thing that a GM should keep in mind is to not metagame when a character or enemy is doing a readied action to brace. The only tell-tale sign of this is that the character/enemy is waiting or may have moved, but not attacked.
Metagame? Using the Brace feature is pretty obvious. It wouldn't be a very hard Sense Motive or Profession Soldier check to recognize what the guy with the polearm is doing.
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First, using brace is not obvious, unless you make it so. For example, horses are stupid, but not stupid enough to run onto a braced spear. Instead, keep the spear down and out out of sight until just before the charging horse-and-rider reach you, then swiftly raise the tip of the spear and brace the butt. That's how you brace a spear against a charging horse. Here's a video example.
Second, if the potential charger decides you are so pokey that it's not worth charging, then your brace succeeded! Braced spears and pikes are, historically, the only thing that could consistently stop a charge of heavy cavalry. Usually cavalry wasn't stupid enough to charge a pike formation, so the pikes were used to defend and hold ground. For this reason pikes and longspears are primarily defensive weapons.
Third, what you want to do is ready your braced weapon to attack the first foe to come in reach. No need to specify that the foe is charging you. That way you attack whatever approaches you. If it happens to be charging then you inflict 2x damage. If it's not charging you only inflict normal damage. Then you get your AoO. You get two attacks before the foe can land their first blow.
hird, what you want to do is ready your braced weapon to attack the first foe to come in reach. No need to specify that the foe is charging you. That way you attack whatever approaches you. If it happens to be charging then you inflict 2x damage. If it's not charging you only inflict normal damage. Then you get your AoO. You get two attacks before the foe can land their first blow.
That isn't Bracing. Bracing, under the rules, is a specific action.
You can do what you said using a Readied attack, but that attack wouldn't be Braced.
Bracing is a specific readied action.
Brace: If you use a readied action to set a brace weapon against a charge, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging character (see Combat).
This would prevent taking an attack, as Magda suggested, if someone doesn't charge. (Personally as a GM I'd probably let that slide, and allow the brace ready action to work as either an attack or brace depending on what the opponent did).
But brace isn't really a specific action either. It is a specific readied action - which is a subtle, but important, difference.
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hird, what you want to do is ready your braced weapon to attack the first foe to come in reach. No need to specify that the foe is charging you. That way you attack whatever approaches you. If it happens to be charging then you inflict 2x damage. If it's not charging you only inflict normal damage. Then you get your AoO. You get two attacks before the foe can land their first blow.
That isn't Bracing. Bracing, under the rules, is a specific action.
You can do what you said using a Readied attack, but that attack wouldn't be Braced.
Show me where in the rules that Bracing is its own action.
You can't, because it isn't. It's not defined in the action table as its own action, and the Brace property itself doesn't call out Bracing as something separate from any other sort of action. "Bracing is a specific action" does not exist, so don't try to treat it as such. (Even if it did, what table is it under? What action is it to Brace? It's not defined, so it is ambiguous at best.)
**EDIT**
Re-reading the Readied Action entry, readying a Brace Weapon is considered something one can do within the rules. However, look at its wording:
You can ready weapons with the brace feature, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.
As far as I'm concerned, Readying a Brace Weapon Against a Charge functions no different than Readying a Non-Brace Weapon Against a Charge in terms of conditions set. You're still readying a weapon to make an attack against any creature that charges you (or a specific creature, if we have to get real technical). The only difference is that when you have a Brace property weapon and the opponent uses the Charge Action, the damage you deal on a hit is doubled.
When you have a brace weapon, try get one that will have reach as well. If you can't, then at least have lunge. It will allow you to stop things from charging at you when you can still attack them when they come in to attack you, that only works if they have 5ft reach tho. And yea, you lose the action when you brace an they don't charge. So only do it to things that are not good at sense motive.
Again, I think the more important question is, "Can a foe automatically tell when you're readying an action?" I say no.
You can ready a general action that could affect any one of your foes; you could say, "I ready to brace against a charge attack from an enemy," and that's perfectly valid and would trigger regardless of which enemy it is that charges you. As Magda points out, the general tactic of bracing against a charge does not have a highly visible indicator; you don't actually set the brace until the last second, so what exactly is warning the target not to charge? Metagaming - and as a GM I just wouldn't allow it, or I would require a high DC Perception check before I'd allow it.
Is there a way in PF to make a foe charge? Not just make them attack you, but make them use the Charge action for their attack? If there was, I'd totally take a Brace weapon. Otherwise, I don't know that it'd be worth it.
@Mark Hoover: Theoretically, if you could somehow deprive a distant foe of a move action without actually barring them from physical movement, it would force them to charge should they want to engage you in melee. In order to close the distance they would have to use the "charge as a standard action" option.
Again, that's theoretically; I can't think of away to actually set that up using common game mechanics.
Inflict the Staggered condition somehow Xaratherus.
Ding! Winner! I forgot about that blasted condition, nice catch!
So yes, there you go.
Now keep in mind that doesn't mean they have to charge you. They could simply spend a round drawing a ranged weapon, and then proceed to shoot you. But if they were Staggered and wanted to close to melee combat and ensure they got an attack in, they'd have to charge.
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You can ready weapons with the brace feature, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.
I keep seeing this as:
"A creature can ready to attack a foe that comes within reach. If the attack hits a creature using the charge action, the attack deals double damage."
If the foe carefully steps up to you, you still get to make your readied attack. "Ready to brace against a charge" is not an action. "Ready to hit a guy who enters my threatened area" is. (You can tell because Brace is a weapon property, not a combat action).
It just has the added bonus of sometimes dealing double damage.
I think if the brace is done ahead of time then it is visible. but the nature of readied actions in PF suggests when you ready for a charge it is likely triggered jus tbefore they charge.
That said most braceable weapons are polearms and you still get your AOO. If the brace is visible and opponens react to it then you can use it to force them to change their tactics.
Wether that is helpfull or not is probably situational.
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I keep seeing this as:
"A creature can ready to attack a foe that comes within reach. If the attack hits a creature using the charge action, the attack deals double damage."
If the foe carefully steps up to you, you still get to make your readied attack. "Ready to brace against a charge" is not an action. "Ready to hit a guy who enters my threatened area" is. (You can tell because Brace is a weapon property, not a combat action).
It just has the added bonus of sometimes dealing double damage.
This, to me, is the only interpretation that really makes sense, because otherwise Brace is almost totally worthless as a weapon property, unless you're playing a Phalanx Soldier who can do it 1/day as an immediate action and gets to wield some brace weapons in one hand.
I believe, that the way it works is you ready an action to attack an enemy. If that enemy happens to charge you, you deal double damage if you're wielding a weapon with the Brace property.
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Again, I think the more important question is, "Can a foe automatically tell when you're readying an action?" I say no.
You can ready a general action that could affect any one of your foes; you could say, "I ready to brace against a charge attack from an enemy," and that's perfectly valid and would trigger regardless of which enemy it is that charges you. As Magda points out, the general tactic of bracing against a charge does not have a highly visible indicator; you don't actually set the brace until the last second, so what exactly is warning the target not to charge? Metagaming - and as a GM I just wouldn't allow it, or I would require a high DC Perception check before I'd allow it.
Absolutely this, there is no way to tell when a foe readies an action outside of meta gaming, you might *guess* in character but a readied action is one waiting to be taken when the situation arises and the target has already committed themselves to whatever it is they were doing, not something you can observe someone doing.
In the given situation yes, you're out of luck if your readied action was 'brace to receive a charge', in general it's best to ready a brace to receive a charge when the enemy is too far away to reasonably reach you in a move given how fast you suspect they can travel without charging, there's not usually any benefit to readying vs close enemies (unless they are known for always charging foes for example).
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Scenario: human warrior with spear and shield braces with a spear against an orc 30 feet away.
Question: Given that the Brace ability gives you a benefit *if* the target charges, and let's say the orc does not charge, but rather uses a regular move action to approach...
Do you still get to attack the orc without the benefit of Brace, or does the action of Bracing Against a Charge mean that you cannot attack the orc if he does not charge?
Thanks!
I also think this is FAQ worthy, as I've seen it come up a few times, and the points made about how there is no "Brace" action are fairly relevant. I've FAQ'd the OP.
I agree with Diego and many. It depends on how you word your ready. Why not just say "I ready my spear to attack anyone that comes within reach. BTW, I also set vs charge in case he charges."
Scenario: human warrior with spear and shield braces with a spear against an orc 30 feet away.
Question: Given that the Brace ability gives you a benefit *if* the target charges, and let's say the orc does not charge, but rather uses a regular move action to approach...
Do you still get to attack the orc without the benefit of Brace, or does the action of Bracing Against a Charge mean that you cannot attack the orc if he does not charge?
Thanks!
If it charges then you get the readied attack and with the specified bonus' for a braced weapon.
If it does not charge then you get a readied attack without brace bonus' since you readied an action against an attack.
Bracing allows an attack that you would not normally get since a charge does not give an AoO to the target of that charge.
If the target forgoes the charge since you are braced then you would get a AoO (assuming a reach weapon) if it uses a normal move action to get to you from your reach.
So basically...there is no point in bracing weapons against intelligent opponents. Because why ever charge if they are bracing. Which means all you've done (especially if you have a non reach brace weapon like a regular spear) is waste your readied action.
Actually there is a point since you have now forced them to use regular movement to attack you. Which means a lot of potentially reduced damage if they have spirited charge, pounce, or are a lance wielding mounted enemy and they no longer get the +2 to hit from the charge on their attacks. And you would then get your normal AoO for your reach, if applicable. So it is insurance of a sort, a defensive tactic forcing them to take a less advatageous action.
Also if they are a dumb enough, such as some animals or berzerkers/heedless of their own safety for some reason, they may charge in any case.
Edited to fix some errors.
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I agree with Diego and many. It depends on how you word your ready. Why not just say "I ready my spear to attack anyone that comes within reach. BTW, I also set vs charge in case he charges."
This is how I'd treat it as well. You're readying an action to attack an enemy that comes within reach. Brace is just a special rider on that action that you get for wielding a particular weapon.
NOPE!
Attacking with a readied action is not an AoO, it's your Standard Action for the round you readied it.
If you ready an action to attack a foe who approaches you, then you attack him when he steps into your reach. If he survives and moves again, you get the option to use an AoO and attack again.
You are correct sir. I have fixed my post to reflect this.
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I agree with Diego and many. It depends on how you word your ready. Why not just say "I ready my spear to attack anyone that comes within reach. BTW, I also set vs charge in case he charges."This is how I'd treat it as well. You're readying an action to attack an enemy that comes within reach. Brace is just a special rider on that action that you get for wielding a particular weapon.
Just to note, I agree with this as well, but I still stand by the idea that they can't tell you're readying an action in the first place (without a check of some sort).
"Ready to brace against a charge" is not an action.
Brace: If you use a readied action to set a brace weapon against a charge, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging character (see Combat).
Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and other weapons with the brace feature deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.
Readying a Weapon against a Charge: You can ready weapons with the brace feature, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.
That does not say ready an attack against someone who approaches. Or even ready an attack against someone who charges, and if your weapon has the brace property get additional damage bonuses. It is using your readied action to specifically set a brace. Setting a brace isn't really a defined game term, so it may be that readying to attack with a brace weapon and setting a brace are intended to be one and the same thing (which IMO they should be) - regardless of whether the opponent charges up or waltzs up. But the RAW actually does specify setting a brace as a specific action taken, even if what setting a brace means isn't explicitly defined in the rules. Its possible the intent is to actually require a charge to trigger it and not allow a normal attack on a non-charge.
"Ready to brace against a charge" is not an action.
Brace: If you use a readied action to set a brace weapon against a charge, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging character (see Combat).
Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and other weapons with the brace feature deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.
That does not say ready an attack against someone who approaches. Or even ready an attack against someone who charges, and if your weapon has the brace property get additional damage bonuses. It is using your readied action to specifically set a brace. Setting a brace isn't really a defined game term, so it may be that readying to attack with a brace weapon and setting a brace are intended to be one and the same thing (which IMO they should be) - regardless of whether the opponent charges up or waltzs up. But the RAW actually does specify setting a brace as a specific action taken, even if what setting a brace means isn't explicitly defined in the rules. Its possible the intent is to actually require a charge to trigger it and not allow a normal attack on a non-charge.
Readying a Weapon against a Charge: You can ready weapons with the brace feature, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.
It is listed as something you can do with a Readied Action, but that does not make it an Action of its own right.
Readying a Non-Brace Weapon to attack an enemy who charges you and readying a Brace Weapon to attack an enemy who charges you still fall under the same circumstances. The only difference is the Brace Weapon deals double its damage on a hit; the other does not. Similarly, if you're readying a Non-Brace Weapon to attack the first enemy who gets into your melee reach in comparison to readying a Brace Weapon under the same circumstances, RAW, you technically would not get double damage as you didn't set the right conditions. Even if in both of the above circumstances, the creature would perform a Charge. But I'd have to say that's a bunch of garbage, given that the language supports you being able to get the Brace benefits without having to specify "when so and so charges," as long as the conditions are set carefully enough.
Saying that you must "set a brace weapon" is flavor text as it's, as I've pointed out and you've stated, not (clearly) defined in the rules as being an action or activity in its own right that one can take during (or outside) their turn.
Arguing your side, if all you're doing with the readied action is "setting a brace weapon," then one can stipulate you're not readying an action to attack, and merely setting the brace weapon up means you get no attack roll. Heck, some might even argue that if you're setting up a brace weapon that the weapon being set up isn't technically in your possession, as it's being set up, not being wielded in-hand, and therefore doesn't allow you to make an attack roll, and doesn't need the added "successful hit" language. But then that doesn't add up with the whole point of a weapon's purpose being similar to that of, say, a real-life bayonet, in which the weapon is still in hand, and you're simply putting the weapon in the right grip position to simply skew the enemy as they ride to or by you; which is still requires an attack roll, which is a subject synonymous with making attacks. So not only is it stupid, it's counterintuitive to a Brace weapon still being a weapon held in hand.
Regarding the italicized parts in your quotes from the Combat Chapter, that tells me right there that as long as the weapon is readied to hit a creature in melee reach, and that creature is charging you, the double damage bonus applies. That is the only thing consistent with itself regarding its rules application; everything else is not, and therefore less likely to be the correct interpretation.