Am I missing something or is this a very odd ability?

[Liam Warner]

I recently found out about the star walker 6th tier archmage path ability in mythic origins (thank you herolab browsing is fun) and it really appeals to me (I am taking it as my final path ability). However the secondary (enhanced ability) just reads really, really oddly to me . . .

Star Walker (Su)
You can transform your power to enable you to travel great distance s . As a standard action, you can expend two uses of mythic power to surround yourself with a bubble of air enclosed by a thin iridescent layer of force. While this bubble offers no protection from attacks, you can propel yourself through the air at great speed . As long as you concentrate, you gain a fly speed of 240 feet per round. If you cease concentrating, the bubble stops and then sinks 30 feet per round until it reaches the ground and collapses; you can expend one use of mythic power before the bubble collapses to regain control.

In the void of outer space, the bubble's speed is much faster. Although exact travel times vary, a trip within a single solar system takes 3d20 hours, while a trip beyond takes 3d20 days (or more, at the GM's discretion). Ceasing concentration while in the void of outer space has no effect on the bubble-it continues traveling in the previously stated direction at the same speed until an outside force slows it down. The air in the sphere is constantly refreshed and kept at a constant temperature, protecting occupants from the void of space, but not necessarily the harsh climates of other planets or planes.

All well and good there I use this and I can fly between solar systems with an average time of 3d20+ days (My characters immortal and doesn't need to eat, sleep, breath or drink so as long as I bring along plenty of reading material I'm fine till I reach my destination where I better have protective spells ready before entering a planet). However then we get to the enhanced ability . . .

By expending two additional uses of mythic power, you can increase the size of the bubble to a 10-foot-radius sphere and you can bring along up to 11 Medium creatures within the bubble. Other creatures can enter or exit the bubble freely.

So am I right in thinking it lets you cram 11 adult humans into a space the size of an elevator for 3+ hours/days with no food, water, toilet facilities and if they want to they can take a walk in deep space with no protection as we travel to the moon????

Seriously for an immortal archmage with a couple of haversacks of inflight reading material its nice but who in their right mind is growing to cram a bunch of adult humans/elves/what have you in that small a space with no room to move, nothing to do and the ability to freely LEAVE the protective bubble for a 3 hour minimum flight? Really inspires me to make a ship of some kind like the white ship (although not an artifact) just so they can walk around, go to the toilet, play a board game or the like. If I can work out starship construction rules (sadly there's a shortage of rules on this given a couple of adventure paths take you to other worlds now).

On another note how do they leave freely if they're presumably floating in midair in the bubble or is everyone standing on it?

[Rynjin]

The answer to all your questions: Magic.

[blackbloodtroll]

A mythic master of magic, magically defies the laws of the universe, with his mastery of magic?

Don't try to pound logic, and physics, into your magical abilities.

Enjoy your magically delicious abilities.

[Valantrix1]

It's a 10-foot radius, not cube.

[Azten]

Seriously, guys? Yes, it's odd.

[MotherGoose]

A radius refers to only one axis therefore it would be a cylinder of mythic force.

[Shimesen]

If you choose to get into a confined space with your caster friend knowing full well how long you're gonna be stuck in there, its your call...if all 12 people are willing to play clown car to get to mars, so be it. If I can't stand your voice by day 78, and decide the void sounds like a better option, i can go at my pleasure...sounds about right to me...

[blackbloodtroll]

Azten wrote:

Seriously, guys? Yes, it's odd.

Context.

You must not be aware of what PCs can do, and especially, Mythic PCs.

In that context, it is not that odd.

[Shimesen]

Keep in mind that it also doesn't state that you yourself have to remain inside it. You could potentially make a bubble per person and launch each one into space at a know trajectory, then cease concentration until landfall is needed. So there's that...or just bubble up your bbeg and launch him into the sky and let him decide when/where to jump out...that thing moves pretty fast, so even after 2 rounds, its a hell of a fall...

[Azten]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Azten wrote:

Seriously, guys? Yes, it's odd.

Context.

You must not be aware of what PCs can do, and especially, Mythic PCs.

In that context, it is not that odd.

I am aware, and it's still odd.

[Daethor]

First of all, please try to be aware of how your tone comes across in text form. Capitalizing every other word is similar to how people talk when they are being condescending. If it was your intent to be condescending, please change your intent. I understand that people weren't answering your questions, but that doesn't give you leave to ignore the most important rule of the messageboards.

Second of all, a radius of 10 feet means the diameter is 20 feet, which gives it a volume of approximately...4189 cubic feet. Seems like a decent amount of room for 12 people just offhand, I could be wrong.

Third, I'd assume that everyone can float around at will in the bubble.

Fourth, you don't have to travel the full amount of the trip in one day as far as I can tell. You regain your mythic power every day and if you are at 10th tier, you regain one use every hour. Travel for as much time as is comfortable for the people in the bubble, find a spot to land if possible, or transport them to a demiplane you've created, or create a magnificent mansion after you stop concentrating, then resume the trip when you want.

Hope that helps!

[Liam Warner]

Okay I missed the radius not quite as squished as I thought, still prefer 10' per tier myself so you've plenty of room to move around, play games and the like.

Also it does seem to imply its 1 sphere not 1 sphere per person or that you can send someone on a one way to trip without going with them. I may have been a bit too cranky for which I'm sorry it just really annoyed me that the first two responses were "its magic" and the very first one is from someone who's a major oponent to another mythic ability overriding recent caster limit/spells per day though it states you get spells back because it doesn't have specific rules to overide the general (but leave that to its own thread).

Mythic is about power not about weirdness at least so far as I'm aware. Yet this ability . . .

1) Protects you from the void of deep space including the freezing cold (air is at a constant temperature and regularly refreshed) temperatures there but from the freezing cold temperature once you enter a planetry atmosphere.

2) Similarly it generates a limiltless supply of air in space but once you hit that planet you'll be choking on toxic gas.

3) What about something like our moon do you pass a certain point and suddenly not get protected from the vacumn of deep space because your in planetry orbit?

4) It pretty much states with the air thing you need to breathe but it doesn't make any mention of eating, drinking or biological wastes. Sure there are ways around that (ring of sustenance) but why give you the ability to take people on a 90 day trip to another star system and not address these concerns? If it only generates air in deep space why not have a sustenance field, or all your passengers undergo a stasis effect unless they pass a DCX will save or you deliberately wake them? Its one sentence and they've addressed one need but not the rest. Do you know how much food and water you'd need to drag along just to feed yourself on that 90+ day trip (You don't know beforehand how long it'll take and its not like you can stop off at "Bobs Gas and Go" halfway between Sol and Golarion)? Again yes there are ways around it but my POINT is that it addresses one concern breathing and not other equally important ones eating, drinking, exercise, boredom (there are plenty of creatures in various modules who have gone insane from prolonged periods of confined spaces).

5) How freely do they enter when you take off flying do they just float and have a personal fly speed within the bubbles confines or do you need to tie them to you with a rope so they don't get left behind?

6) They can enter and exit freely, can I? Does the bubble collapse if I pop out to check an interesting moon or collapse.

7) Is it one bubble and if I create another any existing one disolves.

8) If I stop in the middle of deep space does the bubble remain or does it collapse as I've reached my "destination"?

Like I said its a nice ability and one I'm taking but I do feel it would have been better with either more detail on what happens with passengers or no ability to take them along at all. Which doesn't even address other interactions . . .

I have a sanctuary I take my 11 friends on the 3-90+ trip to Sol once we're in space I use my sanctuary powers to open a doorway to my sanctuary inside the bubble (I brought along a door frame just in case). They can all go inside and have a nice area to stretch out in (bedrooms, orchids, streams and if someone gets on your nerves you have enough room to avoid them although it is still confined after a certain point). Can I go through the doorway and have the bubble keep going afterall the door is open and inside the bubble and without magic that door is the only way in or out of my sanctuary so am I technically still inside the bubble, if it does collapse if I go through the doorway (resulting in huge vacumn sucking all the air out) I need to remain there but can I keep the 10' radius sphere or does it shrink when everyone goes into the sanctuary. For that matter if I bring one person along and he suicides does the bubble shrink or remain till we reach our destination?

Or the concerns raised above can I grab a BBEG (no saves are mentioned) take off for the nearest black hole and then exit the bubble leaving it, and him (assuming a fighter who would die if he tried exiting) to carry on indefinately.

EDIT
@Daethor
1) I was cranky and capitalizing for emphasis as all caps is considered shouting I thought captilzing the important word in the sentence would be emphasising it sorry. I'll go back and edit them if that's still available.

2) As I said I missed the radius bit but it still seems small.

3) One of my questions here.

4) That's the thing there's not a whole lot between stars (dark tapestry) so where are you going to stop off? Its not like the Golarion system where heading from the 1st planet to the last you pass a whole bunch of habitable words you can rest on this is a potentailly GM determined 90+ day trip through empty void, there's no where to conveniently stop off and buy a meal, visit the restroom or even see somehting interesting.

The catch's about demiplanes/mansions etc are (1) you are still in a relatively confined space with these people, (2) need food and drink although you can create a restroom, (3) you need some form of protection against the void although I suppose you could create the bubble in a great hall or something then open the door and let it suck all the air out and (4) teleportation is probably right out because your in a featureless void surrounded by stars that probably look the same for light years in multiple directions.

[aboniks]

It doesn't say those eleven creatures have to be alive when you get where you're going. Think of them as an in-flight meal, and then push the bones out the airlock. It worked for Spelljammer, after all.

Get you a bag of holding strapped to a toilet seat, and another to hover over while you cast drench on yourself, and you're good to go.

Viola! What once appeared odd, now simply appears eccentric and rather sinister. Don't forget your banjo.

[seebs]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Azten wrote:

Seriously, guys? Yes, it's odd.

Context.

You must not be aware of what PCs can do, and especially, Mythic PCs.

In that context, it is not that odd.

... How is this not odd?

I think you're reading "odd" as meaning something like "very powerful", or "unbalanced", while I think the OP means "I can't imagine anyone willingly doing this."

[Odraude]

If they really need a toilet, use a bag of holding. Or a bag of devouring. Like Gorbacz ;)

[Liam Warner]

Seebs would be correct in my definition of odd.

@Ipslore guess we have different views of things I find the idea of having a 5 square to myself for 90 days very small and cramped as even if we ignore the food/waste issue (I said there were ways around) you still need your luggage and if the Sphere dissapears when said caster leaves it someone willing to stop and let you stretch your legs while they can't (or to regularly cast a high level spell that can be isolated from the void while they do.

Which raises the question (again) since it only mentions the sphere dissapearing on a planet can you create one and it replaces any existing one or can you create thousands of overlapping ones around your planet and just leave them there while you teleport out of them as a makeshift air supply for space stations and the like? Perhaps even one day (if your immortal) have them fill every millimeter of space in your solar system so all someone needs is a way to get into (and out of) orbit then they just pass from one to another till they reach their destination?

[Odraude]

Could one cast Tiny Hut in the sphere to house everyone comfortably? Or the Mage's Mansion spell with the entrance tied to the bubble?

[Tacticslion]

Azten wrote:

Seriously, guys? Yes, it's odd.

This was exactly my reaction.

That said, I'm not too concerned with its relative oddness. The reason?

Allow me to present the Shantak, the other primary means of magical space travel*.

1) it's chaotic evil
2) it's a huge beast
3) it's covered in slippery slime
4) it can take riders with it (at least by implication)

Now, just imagine, instead of being trapped in a bubble for 90 days, being forced to maintain a grip on a slippery, slimy, likely-to-eat you monstrosity that, barring it deciding to kill you (by, say, withdrawing its share defenses ability as a free action), will likely strand you in the most dangerous place it can anyway.

Compared to that? Yeah, the space-bubble is pretty cool. Cramped and unsanitary, true, but pretty cool nonetheless.

With the space-flight ability, I agree it can be maddening... but I think that might be a design feature (or rather, the intent of the design) instead of an accident. Bear in mind that almost all things that are associated with the deep void in PF are considered (justifiably) insane by most other creatures. Things like this very well could be the reason why. And, you know, I can see that. The vast emptiness is actually a pretty big deal, and dealing with it in a personal way (which is what all of PF's abilities are ultimately about - dealing with things in a personal way) is exceedingly difficult.

A year or so ago, it hit me, just how maddening comprehending everything would be, at least in the way we comprehend the world around us. The depths of space would be so vast, there would naturally (to our limited abilities) be a sense of hopelessness, loneliness, and despair. It's only by simplifying and shrinking those vast distances that we can really start to get a handle on them. Otherwise they're just too vast - the numbers are simply too big and too far beyond anything we can justifiably claim to relate to our experience to truly wrap ourselves around. So we come up with mental constructs - rough analogies - and work with those.

I mean, at least, I do. I can't visualize how long it would take to walk to, say, Venus. Heck, I can't even visualize (accurately) how long it would take to walk to the grocery store. If I work at it, I can visualize how long it would take to walk to the kitchen, or nook, or bedroom. I might even be able to visualize how long it would take to walk to the plaza, though I'll still probably start "skipping steps" in my mind. Any longer than that, and I've got to start compressing, generalizing, and outright ignoring things for my own sanity and limited brain power.

But in PF, that's not really an option. Well, I mean, it is, and this power is it, but it's comprehensibly more difficult, because, unlike with us, where we utilize out-of-ourselves technology, PF magic revolves around the personal power of the individual, not the collective knowledge and natural trends the universe always follows.

So, yeah, it's odd. It's really odd.

It's also totally in keeping with PF's style of personal power, deep-space stuff, and the natural limitations on mortal minds against the vastness of the deep void.

(And RAW, from a brief re-look at your post, I didn't see anything that prevents you from doing what you're saying, Liam, but I'm pretty sure it's not RAI. You're supposed to have "bubble time" on this.)

* I know it's not the only creature with a similar ability, but I think it's the only one that can bear a rider. I could be wrong, though.

[Lipto the Shiv]

I'd presume that anyone powerful enough to do this, would probably have enough foresight to anticipate such concerns and plan accordingly...

[aboniks]

Tacticslion wrote:

Now, just imagine, instead of being trapped in a bubble for 90 days, being forced to maintain a grip on a slippery, slimy, likely-to-eat you monstrosity that, barring it deciding to kill you (by, say, withdrawing its share defenses ability as a free action), will likely strand you in the most dangerous place it can anyway.

So it's basically like traveling with a very hungry Dr. Who after a week without a shower.

Hmm.

Space travel is losing some of its romance for me.

[Daethor]

Liam Warner wrote:

4) That's the thing there's not a whole lot between stars (dark tapestry) so where are you going to stop off? Its not like the Golarion system where heading from the 1st planet to the last you pass a whole bunch of habitable words you can rest on this is a potentailly GM determined 90+ day trip through empty void, there's no where to conveniently stop off and buy a meal, visit the restroom or even see somehting interesting.

The catch's about demiplanes/mansions etc are (1) you are still in a relatively confined space with these people, (2) need food and drink although you can create a restroom, (3) you need some form of protection against the void although I suppose you could create the bubble in a great hall or something then open the door and let it suck all the air out and (4) teleportation is probably right out because your in a featureless void surrounded by stars that probably look the same for light years in multiple directions.

Mage's Magnificent Mansion is really the ideal spell for this.

The quarters are definitely not cramped. At 13th level (the minimum level for the spell), you can create 39 ten-foot cubes. That's...39,000 cubic feet if I calculated it correctly and you can create any floor plan you want. To quote the spell, "The place is furnished and contains sufficient foodstuffs to serve a nine-course banquet to a dozen people per caster level" and "since the place can be entered only through its special portal, outside conditions do not affect the mansion, nor do conditions inside it pass to the plane beyond."

Given this, you can travel through space with the bubble and rest in comfort whenever you want for 15 gold pieces worth of components per mansion. Very stylish :)

Edit: Also, you don't even have to stop concentrating! Use your mythic power to cast magnificent mansion as a swift action (assuming you have wild arcana or arcane surge) and use your standard action to keep concentrating.

[Liam Warner]

What's bubble time?

You know the more I think about this (still taking it) the more problems I see.

1) If I flyby a star does it count as a planet and negate whatever protections being in deep space apparently grants the bubble.

2) If it doesn't am I protected against the massive outpouring of radiation and light, just the heat or not even that (It says the air is at a constant temparture nothing about the critter just hit by a solar flare).

3) Related to that what about light and dark? Can I start into the heart of a star without being instantly blinded, do I get darkvision in the vast voids where there's no light as its being sucked into a massive black hole?

4) What if I hit a micrmeteorite while travelling between stars as the bubble offers no protection against that.

5) On a personal note I'd prefer a bit less random magic travel speed where you can go to pluto in 3 hours but a trip to the moon can take 90 from the same starting point on earth.

6) A bit of clarification about GM discretion would be nice as in when do they start taking on extra day's? A trip across the spiral arm, galaxy to another galaxy?

Think I'll dig out an old superheroes system and take a look at the intersteller flight there to modify this maybe . . .

1) Bubble is continuous everywhere you stop concentrating but don't dismiss it you continue on in the direction you were going, hovering if you weren't flying anywhere.

2) You can as a full round action make the bubble permeable or sealed.

When sealed the bubble offers protection from harm ray's, projecticles, seagulls etc all get harmless diverted around it (from both ways you can't fire out) unless the object is bigger than the bubble in which case the bubble slides around it. Any creature trying to enter or exit the bubble must make a will save vs something (I'm thinking 16 10 + minimum mythic tier) a successful save allows them to pass through it.

When permeable the bubble has its own air supply, at a constant temperature and protects against harmful radiation (x-rays, UV etc) but not against attacks (rays, rocks, carts) and anyone can enter or leave freely.

3) If the caster leaves the bubble remains in place for X time (1 day or 1 hour per mythic tier?) then disolves away.

4) Random travel times can be determined as 3d20 hours for interplanetary travel or 3d20 days for intersystem travel. GM may also assign particular travel times between objects if desired e.g. a trip from earth to the moon is 1 hour, to pluto 80. Travel time over immense distances e.g. between galaxies take longer than 90 days.

5) Beings are able to move around inside the bubble at will.

Probably a lot more powerful than intended but its a capstone mythic ability.

@Daethor
The bubble doesn't require concentration for space travel only when your on a planet. I had forgotten the outside conditions not affecting it bit and if you put an indoors garden it may well avoid cabin fever and give some people time to cool down if they're getting on each others nerves. I thought the food was unreal in that when you left you were hungry again or something.

[GeneticDrift]

They go in the corner. /joke

[Daethor]

Liam Warner wrote:

@Daethor

The bubble doesn't require concentration for space travel only when your on a planet.

Ah right. Even better!

Liam Warner wrote:

I had forgotten the outside conditions not affecting it bit and if you put an indoors garden it may well avoid cabin fever and give some people time to cool down if they're getting on each others nerves. I thought the food was unreal in that when you left you were hungry again or something.

Nope. It makes no mention of unreal food. Maybe that's an older edition? Plus you get magical servants, at least 26! Very nice. As long as people bring along stuff to keep them occupied, space travel should be nice and comfy.

[aboniks]

Liam Warner wrote:

What's bubble time?

You know the more I think about this (still taking it) the more problems I see.

1) If I flyby a star does it count as a planet and negate whatever protections being in deep space apparently grants the bubble.

No. Unless your DM unilaterally declares that stars are, in fact, planets. Which would be an incredibly silly thing to do.

[Captain Zoom]

Sorry, I don't see anything "odd" about the ability. As stated before, anyone of that ability probably has the resources to deal with interplanetary and interstellar travel. In any case, any long trip requires a bit of planning.

Also, keep in mind that you don't have to take 11 companions. You can just take your PC group of 4-6. Or maybe you're just hauling luggage/cargo/supplies.

Also, that's enough space to build a "travel sphere" for 4-6 people with a sleeping area, cargo area, toilet/bathroom, lounge, etc.

I'm no math/geometry wiz (so I looked this up on the internet), but if I've calculated this correctly, the sphere is 4,188 cubic feet. Submariners (who typically stay underwater for months at a time) on modern US attack subs have personal berthing areas of 15 cubic feet per person according to a US Navy website. So berthing areas for 12 people come to 180 cubic feet. That leaves about 4000 square feet for storage of supplies, bathroom, a lounge, gym, etc. That's not huge, but seems workable given magic and some preparation.

[Liam Warner]

aboniks wrote:

Liam Warner wrote:

What's bubble time?

You know the more I think about this (still taking it) the more problems I see.

1) If I flyby a star does it count as a planet and negate whatever protections being in deep space apparently grants the bubble.

No. Unless your DM unilaterally declares that stars are, in fact, planets. Which would be an incredibly silly thing to do.

Not so silly since the few things released that deal with space describe the pathfinder stars as a sort of planet and specifically state planetary adaptation lets you survive on them.

@Daethor
Probably an older edition, although your still toeing along luggage. Unless my plan to cast mages mansion and then open a door in there to my even larger sanctuary whre all the luggage and games are works. There are of course other enteratainment options for a high level wizard.

@Captain Zoom
Can you fly an object or just a person?

@Diego Rossi
I've been corrected on that however an intercontinental flight doesn't last 3 months.

[aboniks]

It may also be worth asking yourself what the likelihood is of actually spending any game time (RP time) stuck in this hamster ball doing nothing but traveling.

It's a travel spell with flavor. When was the last time you spent more than a few seconds actually playing out the events of a carriage ride, or a days worth of uneventful travel by horse? Or even a week on a ship that didn't have a plot npc on board?

Unless your GM is going to go all Carl Sagan on you, nothing much is likely to happen that will require more than a cursory description or conversation.

Except mutiny or ice pirates, of course.

[aboniks]

Liam Warner wrote:

aboniks wrote:

Liam Warner wrote:

1) If I flyby a star does it count as a planet and negate whatever protections being in deep space apparently grants the bubble.

No. Unless your DM unilaterally declares that stars are, in fact, planets. Which would be an incredibly silly thing to do.

Not so silly since the few things released that deal with space describe the pathfinder stars as a sort of planet and specifically state planetary adaptation lets you survive on them.

That's one of the things I love about Paizo. They preemptively do incredibly silly things so that DM's don't have to.

[Liam Warner]

I'm prepping for a Wrth of the Righteous (mythic) campaign and I like to have answers beforehand and this came up as something I'd be grabbing as a player and as a GM there's a lot of room for adventures in space, partiucalrly deep space where the lovecraft things are.

[Matthew Downie]

It says you can fit twelve other people in. It doesn't say you have to. It would be odder if it didn't let you know what the maximum number of people you could cram into the bubble was, since that's the kind of question a player would ask.

[Sissyl]

4,814,369 bottles of beer on the wall...

[Eridan]

Liam Warner wrote:

I'm prepping for a Wrth of the Righteous (mythic) campaign and I like to have answers beforehand and this came up as something I'd be grabbing as a player and as a GM there's a lot of room for adventures in space, partiucalrly deep space where the lovecraft things are.

Deep space is not used very often so there are only a few rules. Feel free to add your own stuff and rule things in your way.

4,814,370 bottles of beer ..

[Rynjin]

Eridan, you're supposed to SUBTRACT a bottle...

[Scavion]

Rynjin wrote:

Eridan, you're supposed to SUBTRACT a bottle...

'hic, sorry boss. My brain gets fuzzy after the last 4 million.

[Snowleopard]

Odd, No I do not think it's odd. It's more like limited in it's use. And you will not want to do that very often. However crafting, if that skill does not require extensive and spacious rooms, will be possible and would allow a crafter to finnally get some uninterupted work done (provided that he/she remembered to bring the neccasary materials along).

About the stench: the spell/ability clearly stated Air inside the bubble is constantly being refreshed, so that might be less a problem then anticipated.
And the waste problem: Since anyone can leave and enter the sphere and move about in the sphere at will, it shouldn't be too big a problem to remove waste from it and some soap combined with a cleric (create water) or a decanter of endless 'something' can allow characters to remain clean.
So the fact that the space is cramped is definetly a problem but is someone prepares for travel as they would normally I do not see too big a problem.