I am currently running a ROTRL campaign with a player who is a Catfolk that has Scent.
I'm having difficulty adjudicating when it is fair/what is fair in regards to information to a person with a scent check when I as a human being have no experience with such senses.Have any of you had success with rewarding a player with Scent while keeping sight and hearing based perceptions relevant?
Lets start with the basics.
1) What do you think scent SHOULD be giving the player on a successful use?
2) What is your player trying to do with Scent?
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Start with this:
This extraordinary ability lets a creature detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell.
A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges.
The creature detects another creature's presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If the creature moves within 5 feet (1 square) of the scent's source, the creature can pinpoint the area that the source occupies, even if it cannot be seen.
A creature with the Survival skill and the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Survival check to find or follow a track. A creature with the scent ability can attempt to follow tracks using Survival untrained. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10. The DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry's odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Survival skill in regards to tracking. Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility.
Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.
Water, particularly running water, ruins a trail for air-breathing creatures. Water-breathing creatures that have the scent ability, however, can use it in the water easily.
False, powerful odors can easily mask other scents. The presence of such an odor completely spoils the ability to properly detect or identify creatures, and the base Survival DC to track becomes 20 rather than 10.
As this is the ability as defined in the Core Rule Book
...The player just wants it to act as a native +8 to all of her perception rolls and I have been trying to make it both less and more than that...
I'm assuming you agreed to that ahead of time.
I'd definitely require skill check when relevant, and only grant that +8 when it's actually appropriate, especially paying attention to the range/wind restrictions. If she's rolling perception on something that really can't conceivably be smelled then applying the bonus makes no sense in that context.
House rulings really need to be a give and take between the DM and the player that takes advantage of them. If it's going to be a funkill for you and her to limit the ability in a reasonable way, then just suck it up as a +8 and change the rule once this character has gone up to the great paper shredder in the sky.
Native +8 regardless of the circumstances seems like way too much to me though. What if critter A smells so overwhelmingly strong that she can't smell the stealthy critter B sneaking up behind her?
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You guys need to re-read the perception rules:
Special: Elves, half-elves, gnomes, and halflings receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks. Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent. Creatures with the tremorsense special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks against creatures touching the ground and automatically make any such checks within their range. For more on special qualities, see Special Abilities.
Movin isn't doing anything special. He is giving the player exactly what the rules tell him to. Although, the player may be applying it to rolls that may or may not involve smell. It requires careful adjudication.
Well, scent doesn't give you a +8 to all perception rolls. Just perception rolls that would use the scent ability....which would be what?
Aye, thats the rub. Probably anything where he could conceivably try to use scent.
Players roll perception check to notice the ambush waiting for them?
Scent applies, he can smell the enemy around him.
That was just the first example that came to mind. As I said, it requires proper adjudication on the part of the GM.
So given the wording "...a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent...", isn't the player actually required to state that they want "to detect a scent"? Or are we saying that they get the bonus "if there is a scent to detect"?
Careful adjudication is definitely the key, because this could easily become ridiculous unless the player actually has to declare that they're trying to smell something.
Would they get a +8 to detect a trap if it's made of materials that smell differently than other things in an area? Like a bit of string in a and wood in a hallway? Or poison on a blade in the sheath of an enemy?
The only way I can see to do this properly without player declarations is for the player to roll perception without the +8, and for the DM to remember to apply it behind the scenes only when it's appropriate, and then give out scent-relevant information. That's slightly more brain-work for the DM, but such is life. Likewise, there are situations where the player with scent should probably be able to make a perception check much earlier than the rest of the party, if the only noticeable thing about the situation (at least initially) is a smell.
Just as a side note, I routinely declare sniff checks of areas and hallways when scouting, even without the scent ability. (The fact that I do it myself isn't meant to be a reason anyone else should, it's just an example.) It's a good way to get information that the DM might not have thought to include in the description of the area, which can certainly add a lot to the mental picture that players build of their surroundings, especially in homebrew worlds and settings. It's easy to forget to tell your players what things smell and sound like when there's no module book in front of you to feed you the data.
Do it like triangulation. She can detect the direction of the scent as a move action. She takes a second move action. Her turn ends. You place a marker on the board WAY AHEAD of OR BEHIND her opponent, and tell her "You detect scent in this direction."
On her next turn, she scents again. Again you place a marker WAY AHEAD or BEHIND the opponent. Tell her "You detect scent in this direction".
From that, the player should be able to triangulate the location of the opponent, if that opponent hasn't moved. If they have, one or two more scentings should allow them to triangulate the opponent's movement path. I did this with two morlocks against a player who was invisible and in a small basement. The two worked together to find him almost instantly.
I played a pc with scent in a campaign and even without knowing about this +8 bonus it was really helpful now and then.
Sometimes I would ask whether I can smell something unusual from under a closed door* instead of (or in addition to) just listening at the door.
Or I would use a move action during combat to sniff out our invisible party member before unleashing some area spell.
At least once, as far as I remember, my GM told me that the reek in some area is strong enough so that I have to make a fort save or be sickened if I really want to try sniffing out something. While not covered by the rules I liked that better than he just telling me no.
Situations like that now and then can make the ability useful without it being OP.
*assuming most doors in dungeons don't close very tight.
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I think the ghouls in the slaughterhouse are a good example of when Scent [i]doesn't[/i[ help you. The ghouls are "using" the slaughterhouse to camouflage their own scent.
I interpret the +8 to detect scent as being a bonus to specifically detecting scents, not a blanket bonus to perception. If you're examining the murder scene and sniffing for anything suspicious, it applies.
It doesn't give a blanket bonus to checks where scent might be helpful (such as ambushes), but if there are creatures within Scent range (15/30/60), the PC automatically becomes aware of their existence and probably their general (90 degree angle) direction, without needing a Perception check at all.
The orc farted one square away from you after hitting him in the stomach with your club due to your scent abilities he kills you with the stench.... the Guy next to you with out the ability? He died too... from laughter
So given the wording "...a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent...", isn't the player actually required to state that they want "to detect a scent"? Or are we saying that they get the bonus "if there is a scent to detect"?
Careful adjudication is definitely the key, because this could easily become ridiculous unless the player actually has to declare that they're trying to smell something.
Would they get a +8 to detect a trap if it's made of materials that smell differently than other things in an area? Like a bit of string in a and wood in a hallway? Or poison on a blade in the sheath of an enemy?
I think asking the player to decalre they are using scent is sort of unfair. Honestly, imagine you had a supersensitive nose. You would probably use it as much as we use sight, which is all the time. Also, depending on the sort of information the GM tells you, you may or may not know if the situation is appropriate to use scent. Ever walk into a house and you can smell the strong odor of food? Sure! No one had to tell you to make a scent check, you just noticed it. Now in real life, that smell doesn't exist for you notice as a player, so the GM would have to tell you it's there. Better to just either tell the player to add it to his check or add it for him after the roll for appropriate situation. I think as a GM you have to decide if the scent of whatever you is being percieved would stand out from the background scent of the area. If it does, then he gets the bonus.
So, trying to find an invisible ghoul in a crowded city street? You can smell the sucker from a long ways away, +8 perception locate him. 6 ghouls in a slaughterhouse full of decaying flesh? Nothing. You can differentiate between the ghouls stench and the overwhelming order of the other decaying corpses. Trying to pick out the scent of one human you've haven't gotten close enough to smell, out of a crowded street. Forget about it, you'll never pick out his odor from all the similar ones (unless he has something distintcitve on him).
The only time the player should say he's using his scent is if he asks for a perception check, as perception is more often a reflexive ability rather than an active ability.
In my experience, tracking is an occasional use of Scent; what's more common is a player asking "Can I use it to spot an enemy with darkness/mist/invisibility?" (And I don't know the answer.)
To spot an enemy? No. But to detect the enemy is there? To note their general direction (as a move action)? Certianly.
*Except for invisibility, I think if you can figure out the direction it grants you the bonus because now you know which way to look and might notice some disruption on the floor, etc that would give away the invisible character.
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I've always read it this way. Scent does two things:
First, it grants an automatic knowledge of enemies within 30 feet, can detect their direction with a move action, and everything else that is described in the Scent ability.
Secondly, it grants a +8 bonus on Perception checks made on targets within the range of scent (again the 30 ft thing) where noting a particular smell might possibly help. This is not exactly what it says in the rules, but seems to be a logical conclusion. It's easiest if the player says something like, "I got a 14 Perception roll, plus another 8 for 22 if Scent helps here."
Your mileage may vary, but I've been doing a lot of thought on it recently, since I have two players who might end up with Scent in my next campaign.
Scent
i find this site helpful for my halforc ranger with keenscent
it includes various perception mods just like sight and hearing
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In most cases, you are not required to say "I try to detect a scent" any more than you are required to say "I look around for people and/or objects" in an open room. Senses happen. You get a +8 bonus to Perception checks made to pick up a scent. This is quite powerful--you can notice pretty much anything with a distinct scent, up to the GM's discretion of the sensitivity of your nose. Stealthy s creatures, for example, have a much harder time hiding from someone with scent. This doesn't obviate other modifiers, though, suh as those from blindness/darkness, deafness/silence, and so on.
When following trails, the check involved is Survival. There's no bonus to the check, but the DC is calculated differently in a way that heavily favors the scent-enabled creature during the first several hours.
You can tell what something you smell is if you've smelled it before, relative to your knowledge of that scent. A human using sight can tell that a dwarf is a dwarf by sight if he's familiar with dwarves, Disguise checks aside. he can even tell that it's the same dwarf he saw yesterday at the tavern. Scent works the same way, just with a a different sense.
Yes, it's strong, and it makes cat folk very hard to sneak up on. Usual Perception modifiers still apply, though. A canny rogue would approach from downwind to provide an unfavorable conditions penalty to the catfolk's Perception score, or flood the area with pungent perfume (better yet, a perfume of the rogue's own scent) to neuter the catfolk's nose.
Have fun! : )
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I don't mean to be rude, but this is how back-and-forth hurt feelings and misunderstandings lead to flame wars. I'm going to sidestep that minefield. I make posts to help people who come to these forums seeking help. Here is help, echoing what I posted earlier:
This extraordinary ability lets a creature detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell.
A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges.The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If the creature moves within 5 feet (1 square) of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint that source.
Correct. It's automatic to detect that a scent exists (subject to a successful perception check), but a move action to detect its direction.