Goblin Squad Member
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I would never use a scam to take money or items from another player, but is trickery going to be allowed in game? Gambling, pyramid schemes or not handing over the correct amount of money during a trade are examples.
In Ultima Online they were common. Sure, a couple of scams made me a little mad. Scams became a game to me, to the point that I sought out scammers to see if they could get me.
In an open sandbox game like PFO I think it's essential to allow these things to happen... As much as I will gripe and cry when it happens to me. Players become notorious for scamming and create a lot of buzz on forums and in game chat. A scammer might get some gold for cheating, but their name will forever be tarnished.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I withdraw my previous claim about Ryan's position.
Here is where I previously raised the issue of scams and con men being a legitimate gameplay option. I thought he responded in a "less than agreeing" manner, I do not see a response by him now so I withdraw my previous statements about his position.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Any sufficiently advanced scam is indistinguishable from a deal gone south.
At the very least, we can hope to have scams of a much higher caliber than transparent pyramid schemes. However, those work often enough in real life...
Trivial scams, like my custom named item "Dagger of woundlng +6", on sale for a rock bottom price, can hopefully be averted through a combination of culture, enforcement, and education.
I thought this post was going to be about the Elder Scrolls Online development process.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The scam Ryan actually called griefing was the decimal point scam.
Decimal Point Scam:
Dagger is listed on market;
1000.00 gp
1001.00 gp
10000.00 gp
1005.00 gp
If the buyer picks and purchases the 10000 gp dagger, he has been griefed! The buyer bears no responsibility to click the sort button, and list the prices from lowest to highest. He bears no responsibility to see the extra zero before the decimal point. He bears no responsibility to see, before clicking the final confirmation, that the % cost above average price is 1000% higher than average price and is written in red as opposed to green. He bears no responsibility to not be a dumb ass and pay more attention to what he is doing.
Now I don't honestly see why anyone tries to use this scam. It probably has the lowest rate of return of any scam. It also costs money to have to re list the item when it wasn't bought the first time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In an open sandbox game like PFO I think it's essential to allow these things to happen... As much as I will gripe and cry when it happens to me. Players become notorious for scamming and create a lot of buzz on forums and in game chat. A scammer might get some gold for cheating, but their name will forever be tarnished.
I agree it is a nice flavor to have in a game, wouldn't say it is essential.
Names are never tarnished or revered "forever". The memory of both victim and beneficiary fades in time, or gets swallowed up within the masses, and the multitude of interactions we will have.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I loved scamming scammers in Eve. Someone would do the window trade scam... Trying to sell a faction ship way below the market price, but they would put a non faction version of the ship into the trade window. Then I would put my money in at a lower decimal value...
They want 100 million for a Navy Armageddon...
I open window, they put standard Armageddon into the trade, and Id give them 10 million.
Worked quite a bit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The scam Ryan actually called griefing was the decimal point scam.
Decimal Point Scam:
Dagger is listed on market;
1000.00 gp
1001.00 gp
10000.00 gp
1005.00 gpIf the buyer picks and purchases the 10000 gp dagger, he has been griefed! The buyer bears no responsibility to click the sort button, and list the prices from lowest to highest. He bears no responsibility to see the extra zero before the decimal point. He bears no responsibility to see, before clicking the final confirmation, that the % cost above average price is 1000% higher than average price and is written in red as opposed to green. He bears no responsibility to not be a dumb ass and pay more attention to what he is doing.
Now I don't honestly see why anyone tries to use this scam. It probably has the lowest rate of return of any scam. It also costs money to have to re list the item when it wasn't bought the first time.
I don't believe that's an accurate portrayal of the "decimal point" scam to which Ryan was referring.
My understanding - and I hope someone knowledgeable will correct me if I'm wrong - is that it had to do with the comma being used in Europe the way Americans use a decimal point. So, a price of 100,000 looks like one hundred thousand to Americans, but is clearly just one hundred (with a totally superfluous but misleading trailing zero) to Europeans.
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From the RESPECT: Find Out What It Means to Me! blog entry(look for the 'I Don't Give A Damn 'Bout My Bad Reputation' section):
A "reputation economy" is a method of giving weight to people's actions. Earning a good reputation is valuable, and having a bad reputation can close a lot of doors. eBay's buyer and seller ratings are an example of a reputation economy.
Your character will have a reputation as well. As your character undertakes various actions for others, those others will have the opportunity to provide feedback on the results, and you will have the opportunity to do the same in reverse.
I would much rather see PfO try to promote positive player interaction instead of removing all barriers and watching a 'Race to the Bottom' in player behavior. Dealing with players with no reputation(eg:Alts) at least lets everyone know they are on their own as far as possible negative outcomes are concerned.
Auction House pricing scams are unavoidable, but personally I believe a player should be punished for an inattention to detail anyway.
I've never liked player run 'lotteries', and I certainly wouldn't mind them implementing in-game lotteries to curb that type of player behavior.
I've often wondered if it was within legal limits to run in-game casinos. I'm sure they would be popular.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have no problems with scams and knavery in general but they should not take advantage of mechanical deficiencies or shortcomings in the UI to do thier work. GW does have a responability to correct these when uncovered but players also bear a responability to not use them while GW is working on those corrections.
Example of fair play scam "Hey listen, you can save on contract fee's, escrows and all that rot. Just give me your load of furs, I'll take them to market for you, sell them and give you the money minus a comission" <takes off never to be seen again>
- The players loss is entirely due to his excersize of poor judgement
Example of unfair play scam. Player knows that in a certain interface, the font used makes a comma seem nearly identical to a decimal so he uses that interface to sell a dagger to a player for 10,000 gp rather then the 10.000 gp the player thought he was paying.
- The players loss is due mostly to a flaw in the game interface that should never have been allowed to exist in the first place.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's the kicker for me too. If the person is scamming by abusing UI or mechanics then it does not seem like something that should be allowed; people that do so should be punished and the UI/mechanic abuse should be corrected as soon as possible. If, however, it's just someone using poor judgment or not paying attention, I don't think the con artist deserves punishment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The scam Ryan actually called griefing was the decimal point scam.
Decimal Point Scam:
Dagger is listed on market;
1000.00 gp
1001.00 gp
10000.00 gp
1005.00 gpIf the buyer picks and purchases the 10000 gp dagger, he has been griefed! The buyer bears no responsibility to click the sort button, and list the prices from lowest to highest. He bears no responsibility to see the extra zero before the decimal point. He bears no responsibility to see, before clicking the final confirmation, that the % cost above average price is 1000% higher than average price and is written in red as opposed to green. He bears no responsibility to not be a dumb ass and pay more attention to what he is doing.
Now I don't honestly see why anyone tries to use this scam. It probably has the lowest rate of return of any scam. It also costs money to have to re list the item when it wasn't bought the first time.
I don't believe that's an accurate portrayal of the "decimal point" scam to which Ryan was referring.
My understanding - and I hope someone knowledgeable will correct me if I'm wrong - is that it had to do with the comma being used in Europe the way Americans use a decimal point. So, a price of 100,000 looks like one hundred thousand to Americans, but is clearly just one hundred (with a totally superfluous but misleading trailing zero) to Europeans.
That may be true, I never tried to use a comma in the numerical price, but it still does not wave the responsibility of seeing the two BIG RED flags before finalizing the transaction.
When making a purchase, any time you are purchasing an item above its regional average it puts the amount you are spending in "Red" and it puts the % above the regional price in "Red". It could not be more clear.
Also before selecting an item for purchase, you can and should filter your search to list the available items from lowest price to highest price. That is another layer of protection against making careless purchases.
Bottom line, there are a number of layers of protection for the consumer. No amount of layers will ever protect the stupid.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No, the layers were there before.
The decimal point scam was a market thing. It wasnt really a scam as the items were placed on the market at a crazy price. And if someone didnt sort their prices correctly... They could get the hit.
The other decimal point scam was on contracts. Where someone would sell you 1 piece of ore but label the contract as 10,000 pieces of ore. If you actually looked at what was for sale and not take the label at face value then you had no problems.
So the scams... were obvious if you were paying attention. Hardly griefing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Don’t let folks use decimals with money and bartering and we probably wouldn’t have an issue with a lot of the examples above.
1000GP or 1005GP if you want a decimal it is 1000 GP 54 SP 10 CP , a pain to read so folks probably just use GP, but the SP and CP should exist for decimals.
If you don’t allow a person to place something for sale for 1000.00 then they will always read it as the whole number of the coin type that is listed…
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bottom line, there are a number of layers of protection for the consumer.Are you saying those "layers of protection" were in place at the time the "decimal point scam" was being used? Or were they perhaps added as a result of the scam?
As Xeen said, the layers of protection were always there. They are so obvious that I made it a practice to always sell loot for 90% of the Regional Average Price, because that would show up in an obvious color as well.
I typically sold out of whatever I put on this market in just a few minutes. 10% Off the RAP would almost always be the cheapest on the market. Since most people with even half a brain, filter lowest to highest, almost always an instant sale.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As Xeen said, the layers of protection were always there. They are so obvious that I made it a practice to always sell loot for 90% of the Regional Average Price, because that would show up in an obvious color as well.
I typically sold out of whatever I put on this market in just a few minutes. 10% Off the RAP would almost always be the cheapest on the market. Since most people with even half a brain, filter lowest to highest, almost always an instant sale.
Well, someone's not a 0.01 ISKer ... ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not going to argue about EvE. I haven't played it but more succinctly EvE has a particular set of behavior involving scams that it defines as "fair play". Ryan has made it clear that PFO will not be following EvE's definition of that. Heck, maybe it even makes some sense being that EvE is supposed to be a dystopian sci-fi game.
In Pathfinder, a players character would logicaly know perfectly well whether they are handing over 1 gold coin or 1000 because they are physicaly handling each coin paid. If the interface doesn't make that information perfectly clear to the player, then that's the game's fault not the players. Taking advantage of a flaw in the games code or UI to do something your character would not logicaly be able to do in the game world is an exploit as far as I'm concerned. I believe GW is taking a similarly disapproving stance of it.