Dimensional Hop (Sp): At 8th level, you can teleport up to 10 feet per cleric level per day as a move action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You must have line of sight to your destination to use this ability. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each creature brought.
My first question is does this power require a standard action to activate and then the teleportation/movement uses a move action?
Second, the ability states that movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity, but does activating the ability provoke since it is a spell-like ability?
It's a move action in its entirety. And since it doesn't state that it behaves like Dimension Door you can take a Standard Action after the hop.
It is a Spell-Like ability so it does provoke an Attack of Opportunity.
All Spell-Like abilities provoke AOOs.
Okay so activating and using the ability is a move action, but also provokes an attack of opportunity. Got it. Thanks.
True. But the ability listed only states that the movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Activating the power, as per the table, does.
I don't think the table mentioned above has the answer to this. When looking at the Actions in Combat table it is clear that casting a spell or spell-like ability as a standard action provokes an attack of opportunity - as a swift action it doesn't. There is no mention of a spell being cast as a move action so a faq to clarify would be great.
I think we can derive an answer from this, really.
If you have an Su that requires a ranged touch attack, you still provoke if you use it while threatened, because a ranged attack always threatens (thus why you provoke twice if you cast a spell that requires a ranged touch attack - once for the casting, and once for the ranged touch attack).
So even though the ability does not provoke based on the movement, it does not state that it grants immunity from provoking due to using the Sp.
I'm not focusing on the movement involved with dimensional hop. I pointed out that there is no table for spells or spell-like abilities cast as a move action. Another example would be the Copycat abilty from the Trickery domain. How would you handle that?
So even though the ability does not provoke based on the movement, it does not state that it grants immunity from provoking due to using the Sp.
But why does it provoke an AoO in the first place?
According to what I'm reading. It doesn't matter what kind of action is taken, it just provokes an AoO
I may be blind, but I still don't get it.
The footnote reads
Attack of Opportunity: Does using the ability provoke attacks of opportunity the way that casting a spell does?
So spell-like and spells are treated equally when it comes to AoO. Now I'm looking at spells.
If you cast a spell as a standard action, it does provoke one.If you do so as a swift (or immediate) acion it doesn't.
Where is the reference to spells being cast as a move action?
Btw, the paladins detect evil, when concentrating on a single target would also be a sp as a move action.
I'm not focusing on the movement involved with dimensional hop. I pointed out that there is no table for spells or spell-like abilities cast as a move action. Another example would be the Copycat abilty from the Trickery domain. How would you handle that?
So even though the ability does not provoke based on the movement, it does not state that it grants immunity from provoking due to using the Sp.But why does it provoke an AoO in the first place?
Because it's a spell-like ability, and in the general rules for Sps in universal creature abilities, it says this: "Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity." Additionally, in the Combat section on the Table: Actions in Combat, "Use spell-like ability" shows that it provokes when used.
I may be blind, but I still don't get it.
The footnote readsAttack of Opportunity: Does using the ability provoke attacks of opportunity the way that casting a spell does?So spell-like and spells are treated equally when it comes to AoO. Now I'm looking at spells.
If you cast a spell as a standard action, it does provoke one.
If you do so as a swift (or immediate) acion it doesn't.
Where is the reference to spells being cast as a move action?Btw, the paladins detect evil, when concentrating on a single target would also be a sp as a move action.
The general rule is that casting a spell or using a spell-like ability provokes. Unless there is a rule that says otherwise, they always provoke.
Using a spell as a swift action (using Quicken specifically) doesn't provoke because Quicken explicitly says it doesn't. No such text exists for spells (or spell-like abilities) as move or standard actions; therefore they provoke (unless the specific spell or spell-like ability you're using states otherwise).
Because it's a spell-like ability, and in the general rules for Sps in universal creature abilities, it says this: "Using all other spell-like abilities is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes attacks of opportunity."
I didn't look at the universal monster rules (thx for that hint), but this is a strong incidication.
Additionally, in the Combat section on the Table: Actions in Combat, "Use spell-like ability" shows that it provokes when used.
As I pointed out, it is listed under standard actions, not move actions.
This might be off-topic, but I think the universal monster rules are a contradiction to the magic rules where it reads
A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
So what action would a creatures Lesser Restoration spell-like take? Three rounds as indicated in the spell description or a standard action following the universal monster rules?
It takes however long the equivalent spell takes - so a Sp of Feather Fall, for example, could be done as an immediate or swift action.
As to the provocation:
The general rule is that a spell-like ability takes a standard action to use. That's why they list it on the table under standard actions. In some specific circumstances, because the rules for Sps say that they can take more or less time (as described in either the Sp itself or in the equivalent spell) - but in that instance the only thing that changes is the action economy.
When an exception is made to a general rule, the only thing that it normally changes is exactly what the exception states; all other general rules remain the same. So a Sp can take more (or less) than a standard action to perform if the specific ability or equivalent spell says so, but the remaining rules regarding Sps (like that they provoke) still applies. Now if the Sp or equivalent spell also said that using it didn't provoke, then it wouldn't.
One of the common phrases you'll hear in the forums is "specific trumps general" - meaning that something in a specific spell or ability trumps general rules for spells or those types of abilities. But the converse is true as well - if a general rule for spells or a type of ability restricts those, that restriction still applies even if the spell or ability circumvents other normal rules.
The general rule is that casting a spell or using a spell-like ability provokes. Unless there is a rule that says otherwise, they always provoke.
That's what I was looking for. Where is this general rule? My only reference until now is the table "Actions in Combat"
Using a spell as a swift action (using Quicken specifically) doesn't provoke because Quicken explicitly says it doesn't. No such text exists for spells (or spell-like abilities) as move or standard actions; therefore they provoke (unless the specific spell or spell-like ability you're using states otherwise).
It does say so in the Quicken rules, but it kinda just repeats a general rule. In the casting time of the magic section it is already made clear.
Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
Also note, that there are spells with a casting time of a swift action without being quickened
The general rule is that a spell-like ability takes a standard action to use. That's why they list it on the table under standard actions. In some specific circumstances, because the rules for Sps say that they can take more or less time (as described in either the Sp itself or in the equivalent spell) - but in that instance the only thing that changes is the action economy.
Well, most of the spells have a casting time of one standard action, so that should go as a general rule. Moreover, since full-round or longer casting times are not listed, one could otherwise rule they don't provoke AoO. So spells or spell-likes cast as a move action provoke AoO.
But going back to Dimensional Hop, I don't clearly see a spell referenced. In some ways it behaves like dimension door, but is clearly different (no loss of actions, needs line of sight, different range). It's more like an unique spell-like ability with no spell equivalent. Would all above still apply?
Sorry if I may seem stubborn, but I've been having difficulties with this for a long time now.
First, I found something in the rules finally outside the table :) It's under the description of the Use Special Ability action
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Using a spell-like ability works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. Spell-like abilities can be disrupted. If your concentration is broken, the attempt to use the ability fails, but the attempt counts as if you had used the ability. The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise.
Using a Spell-Like Ability on the Defensive: You may attempt to use a spell-like ability on the defensive, just as with casting a spell. If the concentration check (DC 15 + double the spell's level) fails, you can't use the ability, but the attempt counts as if you had used the ability.
This also may give you an option to avoid teh AoO from using it.
So if you were adjacent to a foe and wanted to use Dimension Hop, you could use the Sp defensively to avoid the AoO.
The trick, though, is that Dimensional Hop isn't based on a spell. As a GM I'd say that since you're a caster class, I'd look at the level of the spell you get at the level when you gain the ability - in this case, a Cleric has 4th level spells at 8th level - and use that to determine the DC of the check.
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Dimensional Hop (Sp): At 8th level, you can teleport up to 10 feet per cleric level per day as a move action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You must have line of sight to your destination to use this ability. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each creature brought.
Please, explain the bolded line. What would this serve for if any activation of the spell-like would provoke an AOO ?
Dimensional Hop (Sp): At 8th level, you can teleport up to 10 feet per cleric level per day as a move action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You must have line of sight to your destination to use this ability. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each creature brought.Please, explain the bolded line. What would this serve for if any activation of the spell-like would provoke an AOO ?
After activation, it allows you to move through threatened areas without provoking. In other words, it does exactly what it's supposed to do - it allows you to teleport around the battlefield without provoking from your [b]movement[/i].
Just like the Cleric spell Grace, its effect is that it stops you from provoking when moving - but it says\does nothing for actually casting the spell\using the Sp.
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After activation, it allows you to move through threatened areas without provoking. In other words, it does exactly what it's supposed to do - it allows you to teleport around the battlefield without provoking from your [b]movement[/i].
Just like the Cleric spell Grace, its effect is that it stops you from provoking when moving - but it says\does nothing for actually casting the spell\using the Sp.
You are not explaining, teleport movement don't provoke normally. What would change in the power if you just cut the bolded sentence?
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You are not explaining, teleport movement don't provoke normally. What would change in the power if you just cut the bolded sentence?After activation, it allows you to move through threatened areas without provoking. In other words, it does exactly what it's supposed to do - it allows you to teleport around the battlefield without provoking from your [b]movement[/i].
Just like the Cleric spell Grace, its effect is that it stops you from provoking when moving - but it says\does nothing for actually casting the spell\using the Sp.
I already explained it in earlier posts, but I'll restate it here:
By RAW, activating a spell-like ability provokes attacks of opportunity (it uses the Use Special Ability action, and using that with an Sp provokes).
In order to start teleporting around the battlefield, you must first activate the ability. Once its active you can teleport around the battlefield without provoking.
The ability does not state that you are activating it as a move action; it says that you can teleport using a move action.
So by that logic one would have to use a standard action to activate dimension hop and a move action to teleport. How often do I need to activate the dimension hop?
I believe the intent of the power is to give you a very limited teleport speed and would work better as a SU instead of SP power.
To be honest? It doesn't say what the duration is. It limits you based on movement taken per day.
I'd say that when you first activate it, it remains active until you've used up all the teleportation movement it grants per day.
Reasonable. That would mean it almost never is going to provoke since it can be activated each day when you get you spells.
Yes, you could. Assuming that you remember to do so. I'd allow a a Cleric player to tell me, "Every morning I go ahead and activate Dimension Hop" right after prayer.
My guess is that a duration is intended and just wasn't included, but I could be wrong.
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Rather than assuming an activation time of a standard action and an undefined duration, I'd stick to the text and leave it a move action.
Very interesting interpretation. I think I could live with 'activate once, use till expended'.
So does the bit about "5-foot increments" mean you briefly appear in each square between you and your destination? Is the purpose here to keep you from teleporting across a chasm or other dangerous terrain?
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Now i am really confused. I am a (non english language born) Venture Captain, and my linguistic skill told me that Dimensional Hop broke regular rules for spell-like ability functioning more like a movement form than a cast spell action. Now Xaratherus put some reasonable arguments that at least in PFS RAW it not work in the way i thought.
Which would be a reasonable interpretation of how should Dimensional Hop effectvelly work ? Just a move action or a standard plus a move action ? Because Dimensional Hop + Breath of Life is a very popular life saving technic around here.
Very interesting interpretation. I think I could live with 'activate once, use till expended'.
There is no point to that if you could activate it after preparing spells/praying and then use it as you like.
So does the bit about "5-foot increments" mean you briefly appear in each square between you and your destination? Is the purpose here to keep you from teleporting across a chasm or other dangerous terrain?
It's a teleportation effect and "Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane"(Quote from magic rules). If you have line of sight and effect you may use it as you like.
The 5-foot increments just follows the usual rules for mimimum movement, preventing exploits like "I take five 14-foot teleports; saves me 5 foot"
Very interesting interpretation. I think I could live with 'activate once, use till expended'.There is no point to that if you could activate it after preparing spells/praying and then use it as you like.
Do you have to prepare/pray for an Su ability? It just says X feet per day. Nothing about having to pray to get the ability back.
Am I missing a rule in the Magic section of the OGC?
So does the bit about "5-foot increments" mean you briefly appear in each square between you and your destination? Is the purpose here to keep you from teleporting across a chasm or other dangerous terrain?It's a teleportation effect and "Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane"(Quote from magic rules). If you have line of sight and effect you may use it as you like.
The 5-foot increments just follows the usual rules for mimimum movement, preventing exploits like "I take five 14-foot teleports; saves me 5 foot"
Okay. That makes sense. Just a way of telling you that the smallest increment you can spend is 5'. Cool.
Do you have to prepare/pray for an Su ability? It just says X feet per day. Nothing about having to pray to get the ability back.
Am I missing a rule in the Magic section of the OGC?
No. No special rule, just my assumption. It's a domain power, so I figured it replenishes when you regain your daily spells. DM call I'd say.
But whatever time of the day it may be, with no duration whatsoever an activation and use till expended is pointless.Btw, it's Sp, not Su.
