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I recently played in a scenario where I saw just how over powered weapon blanches are on ammo. Up front, understand, I don’t think weapon blanches on melee weapons are over powered, just on ammo. I saw an archer take out two incorporeal critters in one round and a gun slinger take out a third in the same round. 40+ HP critters. It might have been a fairer fight if they didn’t have weapon blanch (ghost salt) ammo.
But let’s look at the numbers:
50 Weapon Blanch (Ghost Salt), arrows: 1,002.5 gp
50 Weapon Blanch (Ghost Salt), +1 arrows: 3,302.5 gp
50 Ghost Touch, +1 arrows: 8,302.5 gp
OK, who would purchase the Ghost Touch arrows? Remember, I can purchase the Weapon Blanch arrows in lots of 10, not 50.
50 Weapon Blanch (Adamantine), arrows: 502.5 gp
50 Weapon Blanch (Adamantine), +1 arrows: 2,802.5 gp
50 Adamantine arrows: 3,002.5 gp
50 Adamantine +1 arrows: 5,002.5 gp
OK, who would purchase the Adamantine arrows?
Weapon Blanches are only good for the first hit of a weapon. So a melee weapon with a Weapon Blanch (Silver) will strike as a silver weapon on its first successful hit. Then it reverts to its normal abilities. That’s fine. That’s balanced. You only get one hit with ammo, and then it’s used up.
I think Weapon Blanches should not be available for ammo in PFS, they’re just that over powered. Even if I don’t prefer it, I think it would be better to not allow weapon blanches on any weapon then to continue to allow weapon blanches on ammo.
Disclaimer: I have an 11th level ranger archer. He has Weapon Blanch (Ghost Salt) arrows. He has used them once. I still think Weapon Blanches shouldn’t be available for ammo.
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I saw an archer take out two incorporeal critters in one round and a gun slinger take out a third in the same round. 40+ HP critters.
How did the gunslinger manage that? Double-barrelled weapons, a pistol in each hand, or just an insane amount of damage from a single shot (e.g. a critical hit)?
Although paper cartridges can have the ghost touch property added, they can't have weapon blanches applied.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Well, for comparison purposes, what is the cost of 50 hits of an adamantine sword? I look at it as weapon blanches exist as a way to bring ranged weapons back in line with the price of an equivelent melee weapon, which doesn't have to be replaced every time it hits.
(also why ate you putting weapon blanches on +1 arrows? By the point any of this really becomes relevant, you should have a + 1 bow. Making all your arrows +1 for free.)
Also, melee weapons have a lot more ways to add bonus damage to your hits. Ranged weapons typically just give you more hits at the same low damage, meaning DR is more crippling to ranged attackers than melee, and they need more ways to bypass it.
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Well, for comparison purposes, what is the cost of 50 hits of an adamantine sword?
Adamantine Great Sword 3050/50 = 61 gp and it has hardness, something weapon blanches don't have. Also it's good on the second hit, the third hit, etc. The weapon blanch only works for the first hit. That same weapon blanch allows 10 arrows to hit.
(also why are you putting weapon blanches on +1 arrows? By the point any of this really becomes relevant, you should have a + 1 bow. Making all your arrows +1 for free.)
I don't. It's just for gold price comparison.
Also, melee weapons have a lot more ways to add bonus damage to your hits. Ranged weapons typically just give you more hits at the same low damage, meaning DR is more crippling to ranged attackers than melee, and they need more ways to bypass it.
One feat: Clustershot DR is no longer crippling.
I saw an archer take out two incorporeal critters in one round and a gun slinger take out a third in the same round. 40+ HP critters.How did the gunslinger manage that? Double-barrelled weapons, a pistol in each hand, or just an insane amount of damage from a single shot (e.g. a critical hit)?
Although paper cartridges can have the ghost touch property added, they can't have weapon blanches applied.
Even if not cheesing too hard a gunslinger above 5th level can easily do 40-60 damage in a round or more if they can hit. And since they target touch AC most of the time... they usually hit. The key is that touch AC - a gunslinger can sacrifice a lot of "to-hit" in favor of damage bonuses and still hit most of the time.
That said, as you linked, firearm ammo cannot be blanched. Then again Clustershot makes blanches kinda less important.
-j
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Even if not cheesing too hard a gunslinger above 5th level can easily do 40-60 damage in a round or more if they can hit. And since they target touch AC most of the time... they usually hit. The key is that touch AC - a gunslinger can sacrifice a lot of "to-hit" in favor of damage bonuses and still hit most of the time.
Yes, I have a 5th-level pistolero, so I'm aware of all of that, but it mostly relies on multiple shots per round. I just wondered how a gunslinger managed so much damage without being able to reload as a free action. I don't even know what level PCs we're talking about here.
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Yes, I have a 5th-level pistolero, so I'm aware of all of that, but it mostly relies on multiple shots per round. I just wondered how a gunslinger managed so much damage without being able to reload as a free action. I don't even know what level PCs we're talking about here.
It was 8-9. I believe it was a 9th level gunslinger type. I didn't hear what weapon he was using.
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I saw an archer take out two incorporeal critters in one round and a gun slinger take out a third in the same round. 40+ HP critters.How did the gunslinger manage that? Double-barrelled weapons, a pistol in each hand, or just an insane amount of damage from a single shot (e.g. a critical hit)?
Although paper cartridges can have the ghost touch property added, they can't have weapon blanches applied.
Let's see...
For my GS/Alch.2d12 (vital strike) + 15 (PB Shot, Deadly aim , Musket Training) + 3d6+4 (Bomb via Comductive Weapon) + 2d6 (admixture funneled acid/alkali)
My grenadier alchemist can do Similar things with his bow attacks.
Hardness is distinct from Damage Reduction, possessing several 'fun' quirks that make it a way bigger pain in the arse to deal with. Adamantine's ability to bypass Hardness is essentially unrelated to the vulnerability creatures like golems have for it.
Yeah, you should correct him on that. Pretty sure animated objects only have Hardness.
Though I have often seen some inconsistencies in the system. After all, don't gargoyles only have DR 15 because of their tough, rocklike skin? Surely adamantine should be effective, as players are likely to assume.
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Though I have often seen some inconsistencies in the system. After all, don't gargoyles only have DR 15 because of their tough, rocklike skin? Surely adamantine should be effective, as players are likely to assume.
My recollection is that gargoyles have DR/magic - so adamantine is not going to be enough
Also - DR is not necessarily blocking damage but sometimes is instantly heal damage (unless stopped by some material)
Yeah, which is what I think is silly--the DR 15/magic is due to their rocky skin, which should be just as easily cut by adamantine. It's a little thing, but it tends to confuse my players.
"So the stone golem is hurt only by adamantine?"
"Right, because its hard surface can only be pierced by the strongest and of metals."
"So this thing with rock skin is probably vulnerable to the same thing."
"...riiiight."
I get the practical reasons--most PCs are more likely to have magic than adamantine--but it sure confused my player with his adamantine bolts.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Also, remember that blanches do not return with abundant ammunition.
The blanch gets used up upon the arrow hitting the target. The arrow itself will return to the quiver.
Do you have a sitation for that? The spell doesn't say it returns the ammo to the container. It says that at the beginning of the next turn, the ammunition is replaced and the ammo pulled is destroyed.
Note that otherwise AA would be useless, as most special ammo is destroyed when it is fired, so returning the fired bolt to the bag would just give you a bag full of destroyed ammo.
A bigger question is "is blanch a magical effect" since AA only works on non magic ammo, or ammo that is made magical after AA is cast.
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Yeah, which is what I think is silly--the DR 15/magic is due to their rocky skin, which should be just as easily cut by adamantine. It's a little thing, but it tends to confuse my players.
"So the stone golem is hurt only by adamantine?"
"Right, because its hard surface can only be pierced by the strongest and of metals."
"So this thing with rock skin is probably vulnerable to the same thing."
"...riiiight."I get the practical reasons--most PCs are more likely to have magic than adamantine--but it sure confused my player with his adamantine bolts.
Don't say it is hard to damage because its rocky skin - instead say a lot of the damage you do heals instantly - then there is no issue of perception and it covers what DR can be as well. His adamantine bolts do full damage it just shruggs off some of it.
And if he is using a magical crossbow - then that magic gets applied to the bolts
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Does it really matter the exact reasoning? Blanche is not replaced or returned by the spell.
I am not seeing that stated anywhere. Are you saying this is the case because only the physical bolt is replaced? In which case does that mean that if you have a raining bolt (or any of the other bolts which have alchemical fluids) that if you cast AA, you get back the bolt, but it is empty?
Ditto if you use this on a pouch of alchemical cartridges, you get back the ball, but not the rest of the alchemical cartridge?
Under my reading, what is replaced in the container is the ammo as it was when you pulled it out. That includes any blanches, alchemical cartridges, etc.
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Dhjika, that function (healing the damage) is covered by the Fast Healing and Regeneration abilities, which are separate from DR.
From the Core Rule Book -
Damage Reduction
Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to
instantly heal damage from weapons or ignore blows
altogether as though they were invulnerable.
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Under my reading, what is replaced in the container is the ammo as it was when you pulled it out. That includes any blanches, alchemical cartridges, etc.
Expect table variation, because I've seen a lot of disagreement on this in the last few years.
The rules for weapon blanches say "The blanching remains effective until the weapon makes a successful attack." So once a weapon blanched arrow hits then the blanch on the arrow is used up. Though an arrow that misses wouldn't [Normal chances being destroyed.]
And Abundant Ammunition says "When cast on a container such as a quiver or a pouch that contains nonmagical ammunition or shuriken (including masterwork ammunition or shuriken), at the start of each round this spell replaces any ammunition taken from the container the round before."
Now a GM can easily decide that since the ammunition is replaced, that only the ammunition is replaced and not the blanch . Because the blanch is not ammunition. Some GM's may rule otherwise, but it looks like RAW is on the side of the blanch not returning.
In fact a missed arrow which would normally keep it's blanch would not in this situation.
Now Alchemical Cartridges return whole, because an alchemical cartridge is the piece of ammo, it is not the sum of it's parts.
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Had a Zen Archer character this weekend trying to use Adamantine blanched arrows and Clustered Shots against two Animated Objects. He wasn't happy.
OK, I'm making an FAQ request on this one.
The feat Clustered Shots states
"When you use a full-attack action to make multiple ranged weapon attacks against the same opponent, total the damage from all hits before applying that opponent's damage reduction." (emphasis mine)Is the intent that this feat ONLY applies against named "damage reduction"? Or is the intent that it applies against any method of reducing damage that the target might have (e.g., damage reduction, hardness, protection from applicable energy type, etc.)?
Based on how the feat "works", I can't come up with a logical in-game explanation as to why this feat should only apply to DR and not hardness, so I'm really curious about the intent. (Depending on the answer to this, there might need to be a follow up question on what happens if the target has a combination of hardness/DR/etc.)
In the case of weapon blanch, it's easy to explain that a thin plating of a metal does not stand up against any kind of abuse: it chips, peels, rubs off, etc. Since weapon blanch is more delicate than even a very thin plating, it makes perfect that weapon blanch isn't substantial enough to get through physical hardness, but it contains enough of the metal's properties to overcome DR, whether magical/chemical/whatever.
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Also, remember that blanches do not return with abundant ammunition.
The blanch gets used up upon the arrow hitting the target. The arrow itself will return to the quiver.
Well then I guess it is yet another thing to leave to table variation because I don't buy your argument on that.
The spell does not return anything to you. What it does is create new ammunition to replace any nonmagical ammunition you used in the previous round. This will recreate special materials, special purpose alchemical arrows, blanches and probably poison since those are all nonmagical properties which ammunition can have. Unless you are trying to argue that replace in this context means you can only ever get plain arrows from this spell.
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Trying to fix my post... messed up the quotes.
Under my reading, what is replaced in the container is the ammo as it was when you pulled it out. That includes any blanches, alchemical cartridges, etc.Under my reading, what is replaced in the container is the ammo as it was when you pulled it out. That includes any blanches, alchemical cartridges, etc.
Expect table variation, because I've seen a lot of disagreement on this in the last few years.
The rules for weapon blanches say "The blanching remains effective until the weapon makes a successful attack." So once a weapon blanched arrow hits then the blanch on the arrow is used up. Though an arrow that misses wouldn't [Normal chances being destroyed.]
And Abundant Ammunition says "When cast on a container such as a quiver or a pouch that contains nonmagical ammunition or shuriken (including masterwork ammunition or shuriken), at the start of each round this spell replaces any ammunition taken from the container the round before."
Now a GM can easily decide that since the ammunition is replaced, that only the ammunition is replaced and not the blanch . Because the blanch is not ammunition. Some GM's may rule otherwise, but it looks like RAW is on the side of the blanch not returning.
In fact a missed arrow which would normally keep it's blanch would not in this situation.
Now Alchemical Cartridges return whole, because an alchemical cartridge is the piece of ammo, it is not the sum of it's parts.
It sounds like Adamantine has good reason to prefer the real thing.
But for Silver/Cold Iron and Ghost Salt, the OP's point seems to stand on the unbalanced superiority of Blanches...
Cold Iron Blanch is 20gp for 10 arrows, equivalent direct cost. Same cost for Ghost Salt.
But direct cost is not the only issue, being able to apply Blanches on top your "+1 +Special Ability" Arrows, rather than need to keep a separate supply of "+1 +Special Ability" Special Material Arrows (or +X cost escalating Ghost Touch arrows) is a major advantage of Blanches. Specifically Bane(Evil Outsider) Arrows as you can bypass both Demon and Devil DR with Blanches rather than need separate stocks of Bane arrows of each special material type, but same goes for any special arrows you might like. Ghost Touch is probably the longer term problem, because DR/Silver and Cold Iron will eventually be overcome by vanilla Enhancement bonus from your Bow anyways, while Incorporeal is not automatically overcome, and you can stack Ghost Salt with whatever special Arrow Enhancements you want without doubling the cost. Being able to purchase these earlier than you could afford a separate stock of arrows means there should be a downside, so direct cost equivalency doesn't seem reasonable.
Even indirect costs are not the only issue, with melee weapons you get 1 hit, and that's it for the whole combat until you re-apply. Unless you're carting around an armory of replacement weapons (and have Quickdraw), Blanches on multiple arrows is a major advantage... even if you had to pay the full cost of a Blanch for each 1 of them, that's an option melee doesn't realistically have. To address that, Blanches would have to be specified to apply to BOWS but not Arrows themselves.
Mechanically speaking, why should Blanch apply to multiple arrows, allowing multiple attacks, vs. for melee it applies only to one attack for the same price?
At most I can see different Blanch costs/dosages for Light/1H/2H weapons, with Arrows treated similar to Light/1H (no 2H dmg bonus).
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I'm of the opinion that weapon blanches were more likely created for ammunition than melee weapons.
Unless you're using Durable arrows, all arrows that hit a target are lost, and any arrow that misses its target has a 50% chance of being ruined or lost. This makes it prohibitively expensive to make special materials ammunition. Add in the fact that you have to get them in batches of 50, and you end up with a desperate customer base looking for a cost-effective solution.
The process for applying weapon blanch and the one-hit use only make it completely inappropriate for melee weapons, especially since you can get 2 out of 3 special materials for less than the price of 5 doses of weapon blanch. Not a good target market.
With ammunition, however, you can blanch a set of arrows and just carry them around until you actually shoot them. It doesn't matter that you lose any arrows that hit, because the blanch only lasted one hit anyway. Sure, you lose the cost of the blanch on the 50% of the arrows that miss and you can't recover, but that's an acceptable expense.
If the product manager for Alchemical Weapons, Inc. honestly thought he was creating weapon blanch for melee weapons, he should be fired. :-)
Now, whether or not the market could handle a price increase is a different question.
@SB: Ah, thanks for fixing that.
@Dorothy: If arrows' loss rate justifies favoring them somehow, wouldn't allowing melee weapons 5 attacks (rather than just 1) account for 50% loss rate?
Or possibly give blanchs a duration of 10 attacks, regardless of hit or miss, the same for both melee and range?
If you're going to use Abundant Ammunition, you might as well keep ammo of special materials rather than blanches and avoid the argement, since those definitely come back.
-j
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I saw an archer take out two incorporeal critters in one round and a gun slinger take out a third in the same round. 40+ HP critters.How did the gunslinger manage that? Double-barrelled weapons, a pistol in each hand, or just an insane amount of damage from a single shot (e.g. a critical hit)?
Although paper cartridges can have the ghost touch property added, they can't have weapon blanches applied.
Let's see...
For my GS/Alch.2d12 (vital strike) + 15 (PB Shot, Deadly aim , Musket Training) + 3d6+4 (Bomb via Comductive Weapon) + 2d6 (admixture funneled acid/alkali)
My grenadier alchemist can do Similar things with his bow attacks.
I'm pretty sure my Musket Master / Inqusitor has also gotten at least that high once bane+judgement+dex+whatever was brought into it.
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Just remember you need to have as many as your highest number of attacks per round, since they don't come back till the start of next round.
You may need/want more, since you can also have Haste/Speed, Manyshot, Rapid Shot, and, depending on the build, Combat Reflexes and Snap Shot/Improved Snap Shot.
So, my 12th level archer gets attacks, base, at +11/+6/+1.
Add in that extra arrow from Manyshot.
Add in that extra attack with Rapid Shot
Add in another extra attack with Haste/Boots of Speed/Blessing of Fervor
So, before AoOs, he can get 6 arrows off in a single round.
AoOs (CR, Dex 24) add a potential for another 8 shots between rounds, if enemies are that foolish.
14 arrows. Yeesh. No wonder only having 47 arrows at the start of one game, around 8th or 9th level, was too few...
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But let’s look at the numbers:
50 Weapon Blanch (Ghost Salt), arrows: 1,002.5 gp
50 Weapon Blanch (Ghost Salt), +1 arrows: 3,302.5 gp
50 Ghost Touch, +1 arrows: 8,302.5 gpOK, who would purchase the Ghost Touch arrows? Remember, I can purchase the Weapon Blanch arrows in lots of 10, not 50.
So, why isn't this overpowered?
Even with the "Custom Order" PFS boon ....
10 Weapon Blanch (Ghost Salt), arrows: 200.5 gp
10 Ghost Touch, +1 arrows: 1,660.5 gp
In fact, without the Custom Order boon I can just purchase 20 Weapon Blanch (Ghost Salt) arrows for 401 gp and not have to worry about PP and saving 8,302.5 gp for 50 Ghost Touch arrows. Being an archer can be expensive as is with all the different kinds of ammunition you need. No archer is going to spend the gold on the Ghost Touch weapon enhancement.
You have a non-magical item that is at least 8 times better than it's magical equivalent (when using a +1 bow).
Side Note: If you changed the rules and let Ghost Touch be placed on masterwork arrows without the need for the base +1 enhancement, then 50 Ghost Touch arrows would cost 2,302.5 gp. Then the Weapon Blanch (Ghost Salt) arrows would only be twice as good as Ghost Touch arrows. Not a bad house rule but not in the PFS cards.
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But let’s look at the numbers:
50 Weapon Blanch (Ghost Salt), arrows: 1,002.5 gp
50 Weapon Blanch (Ghost Salt), +1 arrows: 3,302.5 gp
50 Ghost Touch, +1 arrows: 8,302.5 gpOK, who would purchase the Ghost Touch arrows? Remember, I can purchase the Weapon Blanch arrows in lots of 10, not 50.
So, why isn't this overpowered?
Even with the "Custom Order" PFS boon ....
10 Weapon Blanch (Ghost Salt), arrows: 200.5 gp
10 Ghost Touch, +1 arrows: 1,660.5 gpIn fact, without the Custom Order boon I can just purchase 20 Weapon Blanch (Ghost Salt) arrows for 401 gp and not have to worry about PP and saving 8,302.5 gp for 50 Ghost Touch arrows. Being an archer can be expensive as is with all the different kinds of ammunition you need. No archer is going to spend the gold on the Ghost Touch weapon enhancement.
You have a non-magical item that is at least 8 times better than it's magical equivalent (when using a +1 bow).
Side Note: If you changed the rules and let Ghost Touch be placed on masterwork arrows without the need for the base +1 enhancement, then 50 Ghost Touch arrows would cost 2,302.5 gp. Then the Weapon Blanch (Ghost Salt) arrows would only be twice as good as Ghost Touch arrows. Not a bad house rule but not in the PFS cards.
I think you are comparing apples and oranges, really, for cost effectiveness.
Compare blanched arrows to enchanted melee weapons, and look at the break-even points.
How many times can you use a +1 ghost touch melee weapon to attack? A lot more than 50 times.
How many times can you use 10 ghost salted arrows to attack? 10 times.
How many times can you use +1 ghost touch arrows to attack, if your GM even allows you to make arrows ghost touch? 50 times.
Weapon blanches reduce, but do not eliminate, the cost differential between melee weapon users and ranged weapon users. The cost ratio still seems in favor of the melee type, not the ranged type.
The major problem with incorporeal creatures is that they just cannot stand up to anyone who uses a weapon that deals full damage to them, because their hit points are, generally, scaled to account for taking 50% of the damage from an attack, or, worse yet, for -10 off of 50% of an attack.
That last can rapidly add up to no damage, even from a well-built PC who deals a ton of damage, because you have to do more than 21 points of damage in a single attack to do any damage to it. Can we say irritating?