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Hi guys,
Not sure I understand the roc flyby snatch mechanics.
How does it work exactly?
The roc comes in, attacks with a talon and grab, and is now grappled..
Then.. it can't really fly away isn't?
Is there something I am missing, or does this just has to be house ruled that such a big creature can actually fly while grabbing?
I see that in the ecology fluff but not as an actual mechanic for anything
To grapple and fly off with the creature it has to grapple in one round and then when it maintains on its next turn it can move the target
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Ok.
Not so bad after all:
Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
And the roc has 80ft fly movement, so he can do 40ft on a successful grapple check at +29.
I guess going in the air allows that +4 free check to escape too.
Right.
Also, and others can please correct me, I believe that if the Roc manages to pin its prey, with just the talons (at the -20 to the grapple check) it can move at full speed.
Once it gets to altitude, the prey may stop resisting the grapple anyway.
Respectfully,
--Bacon
Right.
Also, and others can please correct me, I believe that if the Roc manages to pin its prey, with just the talons (at the -20 to the grapple check) it can move at full speed.
Once it gets to altitude, the prey may stop resisting the grapple anyway.
Respectfully,
--Bacon
The grab part has to be done on the initial grapple attempt...which a -20 is very hefty for a penalty...but yes at that point the roc no longer has the grappled condition and can maintain on the next round and move at normal speed
Would fly by attack help at all with moving afterwards? Or would that be too powerful? How about with the snatch feat?
The grab part has to be done on the initial grapple attempt...which a -20 is very hefty for a penalty...but yes at that point the roc no longer has the grappled condition and can maintain on the next round and move at normal speed.
The Roc has a pretty hefty CMB, so even with the -20 there is a reasonable chance that they can snatch up a normal human sized critter pretty easy. (Most of the players in my campaign have CMDs in the mid to low 20's, so the +9 that remains after the modifier is still very significant)
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
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Correction to myself...if the roc used flyby attack and grappled using the "hold" option (-20 grapple) then it does not gain the grappled condition and should then be able to finish its movement
Not by default, but you could give it the snatch feat:
Snatch
This creature can grab other creatures with ease.
Prerequisite: Size Huge or larger.
Benefits: The creature can start a grapple when it hits with a claw or bite attack, as though it had the grab ability. If it grapples a creature three or more sizes smaller, it squeezes each round for automatic bite or claw damage with a successful grapple check. A snatched opponent held in the creature's mouth is not allowed a Reflex save against the creature's breath weapon, if it has one.
The creature can drop a creature it has snatched as a free action or use a standard action to fling it aside. A flung creature travels 1d6 × 10 feet, and takes 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet traveled. If the creature flings a snatched opponent while flying, the opponent takes this amount or falling damage, whichever is greater.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
It doesn't need snatch...it already has the grab ability...snatch would only allow it to fling people away once grappled
Releasing a grapple is a free action without getting contested. So if the Roc is able to grab the target, he can release it at any time without contest. Should the target whish to /break free/ from the grapple for trying to get placed in a hazardous condition (aka: released in the air) it would have just the same, quite deadly outcome once the roc managed to get off ground: Falling.
So the only logic point to contest would be immediately after getting grabbed, to 'just' take 4d6 damage at the end of the roc's movement. Later it goes deadly quite fast:
Let's assume the roc used the hold option, and uses one movement action to raise, and another to mentain the grapple at the end of the turn. This will result in a fall from 120 feet which inflicts 12d6 damage on failiure (or intended release), the next round the height is 200 feet and it inflicts 20d6 damage, which is the maximum falling damage. 70 damage average. (propability of damage curvve for 20d6: http://anydice.com/program/b66 )
However, you might want to apply the rules for falling objects on larger animals here. Small objects inflict double, medium triple, large 4-times, Huge 6-times damage and a gargantum object does 8 times damage. Since it seems that objects inflict 3 times the damage a falling medium being suffers, the scale up from medium to huge can get calculated to be a times 2 one for huge and a +33% one for large.
This scale up might fit quite well for animals such as Elephants (Huge animal, 93 HP as per bestiary), making it suffer from 'just' 40d6 damage from 200 feet (and thus dealing 140 damage average), which would make elephant hunting for rocs quite successful - the drop is enough to kill them in almost all cases - any roll of 101 or less has a chance of less than 0.03%. (as before, for 40d6 http://anydice.com/program/2a6c )
Not scaled up to huge, the drop of the elephant would inflict enough damage in ~0.09% of all cases from the first drop, but dropping it several times would also fit the hunting procedure described - the instant kill potential from the first drop is neglectable, but the second drop is an almost secure kill.
Curtesy to http://AnyDice.com for calculating the propabilities.
The Roc still gains the grappled condition when it grabs (unless it takes a -20) It gets two standard actions due to flyby attack so it can fly down, attack, grab, and maintain to move half speed in one turn. Next turn it can use flyby attack to maintain the grapple twice and move again. Keep in mind when flying up, you can only move at half speed.
Thanks for the correction of the action usage, the result of the gained height is the same thoug (80 feet fly*2/2=80).
The CMB is +29 for grapple, resulting in a minimum 11 on the option to grapple with the -20 (excluding the botch with 1) and a 45% chance to beat a CMD of 20. That should be more than enough to beat quite some Hero groups, even if it is only CR9.
It is it's 15 feet reach (preventing AoO for almost all weapons, unless someone has a reach weapon and uses enlarge person) which makes close combat almost worthless, and if the Roc targets the frail mage(s) first, and then the archers, it's 120 Hitpoits should be far more than enough to result in a TPK.
Thanks for the correction of the action usage, the result of the gained height is the same thoug (80 feet fly*2/2=80).
The CMB is +29 for grapple, resulting in a minimum 11 on the option to grapple with the -20 (excluding the botch with 1) and a 45% chance to beat a CMD of 20. That should be more than enough to beat quite some Hero groups, even if it is only CR9.
It is it's 15 feet reach (preventing AoO for almost all weapons, unless someone has a reach weapon and uses enlarge person) which makes close combat almost worthless, and if the Roc targets the frail mage(s) first, and then the archers, it's 120 Hitpoits should be far more than enough to result in a TPK.
With animal intelligence, I would probably roll randomly which target it grabs, as the mage would be the last one it would want to grab since they will just feather fall as soon as the Roc drops them.
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Wow, Flyby Attack is pretty insane! Two standard actions a turn means:
- a roc can fly down, use flyby attack to attack and grapple if hit, ending its movement, all with a move action. Then, it can use its standard action to maintain and move the creature half its movement speed.
- a dragon can use flyby attack to swoop down and attack someone with a bite, get back out of range, then use a spell or breath weapon.
Flyby Attack does not allow for two standard actions in a round. It allows for you to use the standard action at any moment during a round which means before or after a movement action (which is normally allowed) and during a movement action (which is normally not allowed).
The problem is if I begin my dive and then take my attack and use Grab to grapple my opponent and I still have unused movement left, can I use that movement per the Flyby Attack feat or am I done per the normal grapple rules?
Strictly by the rules, you are done at that point. As a DM I would probably allow for half speed movement after the attack and grab with the successful grapple. If you opted for the -20 penalty, then the remaining movement would be normal speed. That is just my thoughts and not a strict rules interpretation.
This creature can make an attack before and after it moves while flying.
Prerequisite: Fly speed.
Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.
Two standard actions. It even says that you can't use this second standard action to take another move action.
The top section is not part of the benefit just a general description and is not even inline with what it says under the benefit.
The word that is improperly used in my opinion is "another."
This has been cleared up by Jason Buhlman here.
It is worded odd but there is only one standard action allowed, but it can be at any time during the movement.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Flyby Attack is worded oddly, but the intent is that it's Spring Attack for fliers, with a couple differences:
-does not prevent AoOs for movement
-you can take any standard action, not just an attack
-fewer prereqs.
Robert, others have come up with your interpretation before and it's been shot down. That way of doing things would make Flyby Attack a must-have for every caster build so they could do two spells a round.
Interesting. Wonder why that didn't make it into the FAQ(if it did I can't find it). It is strange that he would interpret it that way. What reason would there be for the feat to say that you can't take a second move when you flyby attack? If you only got one standard action that turn, you couldn't take a second move by default. Unless some creatures have a way to attack as a swift or free action, though that seems just as strange to think about. Perhaps this topic warrants more discussion. I might make a thread at a later date on it.
In responce to what one of the posters above said about grapple free action release...
The roc is animal intelligence it shouldn't be metahaming the combat mechanics. In most cases I'm going to assume the roc wants food grappling and dlying off fits in line with that.
In general though if the roc succeeds its first -20 grapple check the victim wont ger out and the bird will likely make any further checks.
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Robert, others have come up with your interpretation before and it's been shot down. That way of doing things would make Flyby Attack a must-have for every caster build so they could do two spells a round.
Considering it's only by DM fiat that said casters could get them (since it's a Monster Feat), that's not much of a problem.
What reason would there be for the feat to say that you can't take a second move when you flyby attack? If you only got one standard action that turn, you couldn't take a second move by default.
It's simply clarifying that you don't get any more action economy out of the feat. You only get one move action to use for movement, not "a move action, then a standard, then another move action". The feat lets you move/standard/move, but not move-action/standard/move-action. Easily confused, so clarified in the feat.
It's directly comparable to Spring Attack's clause "and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed." Why are they different? Probably because the 3.0 PHB and the 3.0 MM had different primary authors.
Edit: Also, yes, that fluff text for Flyby is completely backwards (should be "move before and after attacking"). The "Normal:" section makes it pretty clear.
Editx2: Ooo - 3.0 text explains the "another" a bit:
"Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another partial action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack."
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Flyby Attack does not allow for two standard actions in a round. It allows for you to use the standard action at any moment during a round which means before or after a movement action (which is normally allowed) and during a movement action (which is normally not allowed).
The problem is if I begin my dive and then take my attack and use Grab to grapple my opponent and I still have unused movement left, can I use that movement per the Flyby Attack feat or am I done per the normal grapple rules?
Strictly by the rules, you are done at that point. As a DM I would probably allow for half speed movement after the attack and grab with the successful grapple. If you opted for the -20 penalty, then the remaining movement would be normal speed. That is just my thoughts and not a strict rules interpretation.
If you take the -20 to grapple you can continue your movement normally (not halved) because you are not considered grappled.
In 3.0 a partial action could be an attack without moving IIRC (maybe I'm wrong, I never played 3.0). I was hoping to think about this a bit more before discussing it, but (failed will save). Also, I just checked the 3.5 FAQ and it seems to support the notion that you get an extra standard action with flyby attack.
you have to do to use the ride-by tactic in the air or in
swooping down on a target? Do you need to take the Flyby
Attack feat? Or does the Ride-By Attack feat cover flying
mounts as well? For the mount to make a single attack
when riding or flying by, does it also need to somehow gain
a feat? If so, which one?
If the example rider wants to make attacks while flying by
foes, she needs the Ride-By Attack feat and needs to charge
(and fly) in a straight line (see the next question). For the
mount to attack in the same situation, it would need the Flyby
Attack feat. The rider’s Ride-By Attack feat won’t help the
mount attack, and the mount’s Flyby Attack feat does not help
the rider attack.
Note that you have to have a fly speed to take the Flyby
Attack feat. If you merely ride a flying mount, you don’t meet
the prerequisite for the feat. If you can meet the prerequisite,
your flying mount still doesn’t benefit from your Flyby Attack
feat (although it’s possible that a feat or class feature might
allow you to share the feat).
With the rules erratum that prohibits overruns as part
of a charge, the Ride-By Attack feat is now nearly useless.
You must use the charge action to use the Ride-By Attack
feat, and that requires you to travel in a straight line
toward your target. Using the example in the PH, this
would appear to rather specifically mean along a line from
your entire square (or squares if riding a horse or other
mount with a space of 10 feet or greater), to the target
square. Ride-By Attack allows you to continue moving
along the straight line of the charge after your attack. This
would have to mean that at some point you would enter the
square (or squares) of the creature you attacked. (At least I
cannot conceive of any other way it could be done). Since
you cannot enter your foe’s space unless the creature is
already dead, Ride-By Attack is now pretty much useless if
you can’t also overrun the foe. Some have suggested that
you could charge in a manner that would not bring you
through the target creature’s square (or squares). To do so,
you would not be charging directly toward the target and
likely not moving by the shortest route (also a charge
requirement) or attacking it from the first possible square
(another charge requirement). In any of these cases, you
would be breaking the rules for a charge. Am I wrong
about any of this?
No, you’ve got it about right.
When using the Ride-By attack feat, you must conduct your
charge so that you move in a straight line toward the closest
square from which it is possible to attack your chosen foe, so
long as it is a square that allows you to attack and then continue
on in the straight line of the charge. You still must attack your
foe the moment you reach that square. (Although the feat
description doesn’t say so, you and your mount also must move
at least 5 feet after you make your attack to get the benefit of
the feat.) This is a special rule for charging when using the
Ride-By Attack feat. Note that the Flyby Attack feat (discussed
in the previous question) does not require you to move in a
straight line. You merely make a single move and take another
standard action at some point during that move.
If it was a typo, it seems strange that they would have made the same typo in a FAQ clarification about the feat. I am aware that they weren't specifically confirming that you get two standard actions, but it seems to be implied.
The "another" is in reference to the move action. In 3.0, a partial action was either a move action or what's now called a standard action (at the time, a standard action was "move + attack").
So, since you're already making a move action, and the feat doesn't allow you to make a second move action, it had no choice but to say "another partial action", since you had to perform a partial action that wasn't a move action.
The "another" was kept in the transition to 3.5 and PF, presumably to still clarify that you can't use the standard action to perform another move action (which you would normally have been able to do), although in those rulesets that terminology becomes confusing.
Regardless, you've never been able to perform two standard actions with Flyby Attack.
Strictly by the rules, you are done at that point. As a DM I would probably allow for half speed movement after the attack and grab with the successful grapple. If you opted for the -20 penalty, then the remaining movement would be normal speed. That is just my thoughts and not a strict rules interpretation.If you take the -20 to grapple you can continue your movement normally (not halved) because you are not considered grappled.
Yep that is why I said that in the bold sentence.