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How would you all rate Pathfinder vs 4E?
If you can't really give it a rating, discuss the pros and cons of each.
A few of my friends love it, and personally I just can't find any joy in it. Everytime I look at the character builder, it just makes me want to play less. However, for Pathfinder, I'm in love with it! To me, 4e feels like an oversimplified d&d. It makes me think of it as the "world of warcraft" of all the d&d editions... and not in a good way. :T
You did not want to remake this thread sir, it has been done plenty of times with the same base accusations. Nothing good will come of it.
Honestly, I've become more and more disappointed in Pathfinder (specifically Golarion) lately, so I've picked up my old 4E books and thought about changing back.
Then I remembered why we haven't played 4E more than a few times. It feels lifeless and superficial.
The pros and cons of pathfinder are generally the same: it's very close to 3.5. It was close enough when it came out and it's too close by now, as it hasn't evolved much.
I hope that was objective enough, as this thread will probably be flaming soon.
Maybe Tequila Sunrise might show up, I know he's a big fan of 4E. While I've never played, I've felt like trying. Despite the fact I never got a chance to play, got my hands on 4e books before pathfinder, and I wasnt too troubled. My opinion might change should I check them out again.
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They both have their place.
I've thoroughly enjoyed bringing people new to role playing into the fold with 4th edition. It's very easy to learn and hit the ground running. Hand out daily/encounter/at-will cards and go!
Pathfinder scratches a different itch and I have found it is more popular with those whos gaming experience predates 4th edition. It carries some of that "old school" feel.
These are broad generalizations. But I think the point can be made that there is room for both games at many tables.
What 5th editions will do to change the equation? Only time will tell.
4E had some really good ideas. Healing surges were a cool mechanic and incorporating action points as a daily resource made combat interesting, especially with the milestones every 2 combats. Minions and solo monsters were also a nice way to easily create challenging fights. Paragon and epic paths made class combinations lots of fun to customize and plan out. Having at-will and encounter powers was also nice because there was no longer this "Well, used up all my spells for today, it's back to just cantrips until I rest" stuff.
That said, it felt too much like a combat simulator and not enough like a full-fledged RPG. Pathfinder has tons of options for out of combat problem solving, 4E just has skills and the occasional ritual and that's it. Even in the combat arena, for all the coolness of what each classes abilities could do, they felt way too similar. The overall capability of each class to move around, control the battlefield, or strike the enemy may vary somewhat, but deep down they were the same in spirit. If you wanted to play a bow-oriented ranger or a warlock, aside from the individual abilities the differences between play-style were almost not there at all.
What 4E needed was actually fairly simple to be an amazing product:
A) WotC should have thrown their full-support behind it and the player base using it
B) monsters needed to be beefed up
C) each class needed at least a couple unique mechanics for both in and out of combat play
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Unlike Pathfinder, 4th Edition wasn't a derivation of 3.5. When making 4th edition, WOTC stripped D20 down to its chassis, took out some of that, and started rebuilding from scratch.
I believe that falls exactly in line with my comparison above.
4E still has the same name, races, classes, spells, and iconic monsters that 3.5 had. It simply adapted differently to its environment than Pathfinder did.
And now it battles with Pathfinder just like Bears and Wolves.
D&D 3.5 was the "Beardog".
Pathfinder and 4E are different species evolved from that Beardog.
They will both eventually either go extinct, or evolve into something else.
What does that make OD&D? ;-)
4E has already been listed on the CITES list of endangered species.
<g>
I have one 4th ed game, and since we have a great DM, it's pretty good. It has some cool things.
Guys? Edition wars are against the rules of the Paizo boards. So, please keep this civil and keep it focused on the positive aspects of the games.
The pros of Pathfinder are that of all the various incarnations of fantasy adventure RPGs focused on combat and classes, it is my favorite system and edition.
The pros of 4E are that it is a game and you can play it.
You did not want to remake this thread sir, it has been done plenty of times with the same base accusations. Nothing good will come of it.
Hmm - does anyone know the "best" PF v. 4E thread(s)? Perhaps links to those would be good to keep around for when these threads pop up, with new folks eager to hear what people think.
As a historical footnote. We are actually at the point where we have gamers that have never played anything earlier than 3.X, in fact there's a whole crop that's experiencing Pathfinder as their FIRST experience in D20.
What does that make OD&D? ;-)
One of those here! Although I did play Baldur's Gate & Plansecape tormet, so I have some knowledge of 2e.
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I can understand not liking 4E. I will never understand the attitude of a rpg having to be hard and complicated to use. Or if any attempt to simplify a rpg is "dumbing it down". I play rpgs to have fun. Not to break a sweat. I can go to the gym for that. For me rpgs are to have fun with friends and players at the table and nothing else. Note I'm not saying that Pathfinder is complex.
I found 4E to be bland after awhile. It still my favorite edition for martials hands down. As well I felt that the material for 4E books felt too sparse. If I'm paying 35-40$ a book I expect a certain page count. I also don't get the reference to MMOs as well since to me previous editions of D&D felt like they were trying to incorporaye as many elements from computer games as possible. Hell fantasy computer games stole so many things from the pen and paper rpg it's not funny.
Uhm let me think...
Horrible Monster Manuals 1,2 and especially 3 (all with 10.000 species of goblins with different weapons and hobgoblins having another backname) VS (a little bit boring) Bestiary 1 and extreme cool and perfect Bestiaries 2, 3 and 4...
I choose Pathfinder!
