Burrowing earth elemental questions


Rules Questions


Friend is playing as a Stonelord paladin.

Basically we are trying to figure out how burrow works in terms of attacks, especially with regard to earth glide.

We are under the assumption it can pretty much attack while burrowing and nobody will know where it is. So how can enemies attack it? With weapons or spells?


It can't see enemies while it is in a square[cube] of earth, so it would rely on heavily penalized Perception checks to Pin-Point enemies, and if it can Pin-Point them, those attacks would be at 50% Miss Chance for Full Concealment (reducable via Blind-Fight, although that doesn't address the Perception check itself) if it attacks from within the earth.

Anybody else can freely see what square[cube] attacks are coming from, so unless it moves after the attack(s) that is still accurate for it's location. Even if it doesn't attack, everybody is still entitled to Perception checks with equivalent penalties to notice/Pin-Point the Elemental's location underground/in the walls.

It has Total Cover there from non-Earth Gliders (or also vs. Earth Gliders?), and can't be targetted by spells other than area spells that affect the earth. So there are very strong aspects, but with limitations such that you will often want to discard those in order to be more effective. Also, while it is in the earth, it will be very difficult to communicate with it (I believe the Arcane Cantrip "Message" would not work, although Telepathy would), never mind that it can barely Perceive anything itself.

Spring Attack might be desirable, although anybody can Ready attacks for when it appears outside the earth. There is a Feat "Strike Back" that also allows Readying attacks vs. enemies outside of your Reach, which seems like it would also apply to Elementals attacking from within a square[cube] of earth.

I probably missed something else... ;-)


Quandary wrote:

It can't see enemies while it is in a square[cube] of earth, so it would rely on heavily penalized Perception checks to Pin-Point enemies, and if it can Pin-Point them, those attacks would be at 50% Miss Chance for Full Concealment (reducable via Blind-Fight, although that doesn't address the Perception check itself) if it attacks from within the earth.

Anybody else can freely see what square[cube] attacks are coming from, so unless it moves after the attack(s) that is still accurate for it's location. Even if it doesn't attack, everybody is still entitled to Perception checks with equivalent penalties to notice/Pin-Point the Elemental's location underground/in the walls.

It has Total Cover there from non-Earth Gliders (or also vs. Earth Gliders?), and can't be targetted by spells other than area spells that affect the earth. So there are very strong aspects, but with limitations such that you will often want to discard those in order to be more effective. Also, while it is in the earth, it will be very difficult to communicate with it (I believe the Arcane Cantrip "Message" would not work, although Telepathy would), never mind that it can barely Perceive anything itself.

Spring Attack might be desirable, although anybody can Ready attacks for when it appears outside the earth. There is a Feat "Strike Back" that also allows Readying attacks vs. enemies outside of your Reach, which seems like it would also apply to Elementals attacking from within a square[cube] of earth.

I probably missed something else... ;-)

As far as it being able to see targets it does have tremorsense, idk if you were taking that into consideration:

A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability’s range is specified in the creature’s descriptive text.

Unfortunately i don't think it can take feats that elemetals don't get be default because it says it replaces divine bond .

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/dwarf/stonelord-paladin-dwarf

If I am wrong please let me know


You're right, Tremorsense works for Pinpointing alot of creatures, you just need Perception to be aware of anything outside of that range or that isn't touching the earth (i.e. standing on a barrel or flying). Tremorsense also is not aware of inanimate objects within it's range. Similar dynamic to Blind Curse Oracles, better and worse in different ways. Even Tremorsense'd creatures still have Full Concealment though, not to mention lack on situational awareness as to what they are actually doing.

And yeah, I think I was confusing my WISH that the Stone Servant could advance and be customizable like a Companion :-) for the actual reality that it's not different than a Summons in that regard.

Over-all, there are just a good amount of limitations to deal with/ be aware of, but they don't kill it's viability, and I think it's strong over all, both the Stone Servant itself and the Class Archetype.

Sczarni

Kanaric wrote:
Unfortunately i don't think it can take feats that elemetals don't get be default because it says it replaces divine bond.
Stone Servant (Su) wrote:

At 5th level, a stonelord may call a Small earth elemental to her side, as a paladin calls her mount. This earth elemental is Lawful Good in alignment and possesses the celestial template, and it increases in size as the stonelord gains levels, becoming Medium at 8th level, Large at 11th level, Huge at 14th level, Greater at 17th level, and Elder at 20th level.

This ability replaces divine bond.

That's a good point. It does specify a "small earth elemental", and doesn't suggest anywhere that this elemental uses the same advancement as an Animal Companion. Judging by the fact that it grows to Huge, whereas all other companions top out at Large, reinforces that idea.

I've never encountered a Stonelord in PFS play. I wonder how others handle it.


I was always under the assumption that while your burrowing, the ground collapses in behind you, so If you stop anywhere while burrowing, you will get buried under fill in. As far as earth glide, I've wondered how that would work myself. Could you reach up from underneath a creature and attack then sink back down? Since they can not detect you while earth gliding, I would say the best attack is rising up behind them and attempting a stealth attack. Try to catch them flat footed.


Afaik pathfinder has no rules for how burrowing works, so it works however you & your dm want it too.


I know this isn't from any rules, but the Burrow spell does describe how it works. (in this spell at least)

Druid 3rd lvl Burrow spell wrote:

Burrow

School transmutation; Level alchemist 3, druid 3, ranger 3, sorcerer/wizard 3

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range touch

Target creature touched

Duration 1 minute/level

Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)

The subject can burrow at a speed of 15 feet (or 10 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load) through sand, loose soil, or gravel, or at a speed of 5 feet through stone. Using burrow requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. The burrowing creature cannot charge or run. Loose material collapses behind the target 1 round after it leaves the area. This spell does not give the target the ability to breathe underground, so when passing through loose material, the creature must hold its breath and take only short trips, or else it may suffocate.

Sovereign Court

Note that Tremorsense will pinpoint enemies, but that's not the same as actually seeing them, so the earth elemental is still fighting blind; it's just extremely hard for others to strike back at it.


Nefreet wrote:
That's a good point. It does specify a "small earth elemental", and doesn't suggest anywhere that this elemental uses the same advancement as an Animal Companion. Judging by the fact that it grows to Huge, whereas all other companions top out at Large, reinforces that idea.

I think the fact that it advances to elder, which is just a huge elemental with a slightly different stat block, is much more telling.

And Darthslash, the Earthglide ability works a little differently from the Burrow Spell. It specifically says that you move through the earth like other creature would move through water, and you do not leave those kinds of disturbances (although tremor sense would still detect your presence).

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