| 7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
UNPREPARED COMBATANT
School enchantment (compulsion) [emotion, mind-affecting]; Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, witch 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
The target takes a –4 penalty on initiative checks and Reflex saves.
So, based on the above, which is true?
1: You cast it on someone before they have acted and modify their initiative.2: You can cast it on someone and if they fail their saving throw, they involuntarily delay 4 'steps' in the initiative order. (12 initiative becomes an 8 initiative.)
3: You have to cast it before initiative is rolled somehow.
I've been ruling it as #2, but I am looking for some support from the community at large.
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
You could cast it after init is rolled,but it would not modify the target's current init count.Only if they had to make a new check within the duration would that matter.
You would still impose the penalty on ref save regardless.
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It is a great surprise action spell....if you surprise the enemy, you only get one standard action. So this spell fills that niche.
Once you roll for initiative, the actual number won't change, but your place in the initiative order can (via delay actions etc).
regardless if you use it after the surprise round (and assuming they fail the save) the target will still get a negative to his reflex saves
is there anywhere DmRrostarr or Larkspire can quote or link that says a players/monsters initiative roll CANT be modified mid-fight? I've never heard of this before and would agree with the OP and rule as the 2nd option, although i would also allow the 3rd option as possible given that someone could cast this as a silent/still spell and the recipient would have no way of knowing who cast it, and therefore no logical reason to start combat and force an initiative roll.
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Per the PRD:
"Initiative
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll, as well as other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects. Characters act in order, counting down from the highest result to the lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions)."
Starting with the third sentence is key... "Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll, as well as other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects." Then the characters act in the same order UNLESS the CHARACTER takes an action to change his initiative order.
But in this case a Character is taking an action to change the order.
Someone else's, but it is being manipulated by an action (the spell).
Very Respectfully,
--Bacon
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Hence thats why the spell's part on initiative HAS to apply when initiative is rolled. All modifiers are APPLIED at the time of the roll. If the spell is not in place by the time the die is cast then, the initiative doesn't change unless the CHARACTER takes an action to change it himself.
Now if the spell didn't apply a numerical value to it then it would be a different case. If the spell said "the target of the spell automatically goes last each round" then thats different. The fact that they placed a numerical value to the initiative makes it tricky, cuz under the initiative section it says ALL modifiers are to be applied, not modifiers after the die is cast.
Regardless if you are the DM then it really only matters to you how you rule it. Perhaps an FAQ push could be done.
i would normally agree with that, except that this spell comes from UM and as far as i know, there hasn't been a republish with new errata to the CRB since UM was published. and even if there has been, its very likely that nothing was changed because no one noticed this little bit.
i say this because it seems unlikely that a spell would specifically modify an initiative in a negative way (meant to be used on an opponent) and not be meant to be used in combat for this exact purpose - to change its place in the initiative order.
granted, i may be completely wrong, and my example of a silent/still use of this spell is the best way to utilize this part of it, but i doubt it because if that were the case, it would make much more sense to have listed the effects the other way around (The target takes a –4 penalty on Reflex saves and Initiative checks.)
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Based on the spell name, Unprepared Combatant, I am inclined to believe you need to cast the spell on the enemy before combat begins. So a surprise round / attacking someone who isn't aware you intend to kill them. I mean, its seriously only a 1st level spell.
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I've always thought this was a pretty terrible spell because chances of not only casting it on someone/something before the fight, but also having it prepared for just such a situation, are rare.
But it makes a lot more sense if you can cast throughout combat and lower their initiative score.
Good FAQ candidate.
I've always thought this was a pretty terrible spell