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OK, so, when should/can a paladin STOP following a counties laws? If at all?
sample issue, A paladin following a god of freedom, (cant remember names, books are not here atm) Enters into a country with laws enforcing slavery and oppressing the plebeians. (peasants)
does the paladin follow his good side and work to bring down and reform the government while freeing slaves (illegally) or does he have to accept it and suffer the EVIL.
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Ahahaha, found it!
The fact of the matter is that paladins can sometimes find themselves in a perpetual state of "damned if I do, damned if I don't." A setting where slavery is both legal and not necessarily evil can make it extremely difficult to find a leg to stand on, so to speak. They are supposed to respect legitimate authority as per their code. Bearing that in mind, there are alternate means of pursuing change. The paladin doesn't have to make itself fall by rampaging through the heart of Lawful McEvilTown, for example. It could do anything from begin encouraging people to seek change to actually, through legal means, working against the governing party at large.
Pursuit of change is not, of itself, an unlawful or an evil act. One simply has to make certain they don't actually cross over that line, and it's a very fine line to walk already for paladin characters.
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what if said government has laws that make working against the government (or the corrupt aristocrats/oligarchy what have you) illegal, what happens then?
That's a pretty good question. If I were playing the paladin, I'd probably have it throw its hat in the political arena in an attempt to gain the support of others without violating said law. Now, if that country is so stringent in its laws that people outside the royal family aren't even allowed an opinion lest they risk a trip to prison, you've got a major problem. ... That's also the kind of government that probably needs overthrowing, as chances are a lot of the badness is goin' on.
The hard part is figuring out what your GM is going to do in the event of a paladin taking X action versus Y action. Personally, I tend to give them some modicum of latitude so they don't fall every six seconds. RAW, playing paladins is pretty much a trap. Gotta let them have some wiggle room.
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whenever I have ran games, I always hold the G/N/E side as a more important role than L/N/C, as, a paladin is good first and foremost, and lawful 2nd. So, in MY mind, a paladin fighting, (either legally, or as a rebel leader) against aforementioned country/kingdom is A ok. That said, I have never had one of these discussions come to a definitive agreement.
Even if the government NEEDS overthrowing, by your ruling there is nothing a paladin can do :/
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whenever I have ran games, I always hold the G/N/E side as a more important role than L/N/C, as, a paladin is good first and foremost, and lawful 2nd. So, in MY mind, a paladin fighting, (either legally, or as a rebel leader) against aforementioned country/kingdom is A ok. That said, I have never had one of these discussions come to a definitive agreement.
Even if the government NEEDS overthrowing, by your ruling there is nothing a paladin can do :/
I can't say I would penalize a paladin if it was a government that honestly needed overthrowing. My understanding over in the other thread was that they wanted to overthrow a nation purely for being of lawful evil alignment and allowing slavery. If we're talking oppressive, abusive, country whose power nobody in their right mind would see as legitimate? That's something a paladin definitely needs to take action against. It's the sort of thing that would need to be handled on a case by case basis. For example, slavery is not in and of itself something that ought to motivate a paladin to go tear assing through the town square in search of the head honcho. Many societies do, after all, condone it as both acceptable and lawful no matter how messed up it is on paper.
I was more saying a paladin shouldn't go trying to smite officials of a government whose authority was both lawful and legitimate, even if they happen to be evil along with their lawful. It isn't hard to wind up getting an alignment infraction if the government pretty much isn't wronging its citizens any more than, say, the government in Taldor might be doing and the paladin just starts smashing heads.
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I don't see anything in the paladin code that requires the paladin to follow a country's laws.
Respecting authority is not the same thing as obeying it. I respect my enemies. But I will still work against them.
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perhaps, but what happens when devils and angels meet? That said, you don't see many "wars in heaven" anymore.
I actually don't think they would start fighting immediately. Angels and demons? Definitely, but the angels appear to recognize devils as having a legitimate place in the grand scheme of things. Devils do not seek to disrupt or destroy, only to tempt more souls into falling under their sway. They offer temptation where their opposites offer salvation, I guess you might say. Demons, on the other hand, are constantly at odds with the angels. Their wanton destruction and spread of chaos are things that evidently must be contained.
I don't see anything in the paladin code that requires the paladin to follow a country's laws.
Respecting authority is not the same thing as obeying it. I respect my enemies. But I will still work against them.
That is generally what respecting legitimate authority is, obeying their laws, I mean. That's really about all I've been saying. Well, that and that not all settings treat slavery as evil. A paladin most certainly can work against a government if they want to. They just don't need to start smashing heads to do it. Evil is evil, and paladins are certainly obligated to deal with evil. However, lawful AND evil can turn it into a huge list of things they should and should not do to that end. There can also be a lot of other factors to consider. Alternatively, it could be a terrible kingdom that is only "lawful" because its rulers damn well say it is. Lawful can be taken to such an extreme that anyone with any sense would want to put an end to it.
Geb is actually a pretty good example of one of those countries where they might technically have the right to rule through one means or another, but it's a place full of the worst kind of horrors anyone could possibly imagine. I can see zero reason a bunch of paladins shouldn't just burn that place to the ground, though I do suspect they may want to spare what few non-evil, intelligent undead live there. Race doesn't so much matter as intention or alignment. .. Actually come to think of it, they could probably justify killing those as well because lolundead. Unfortunate, really, that what few "good" or "neutral" undead there are will probably suffer the same fate.
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So here is what I get from it.
There are two axes, good/evil and lawful/chaotic.
When one axis comes into direct conflict with the objectives of the other axis the first axis can be treated as neutral, and then to the opposite.
So, a Lawful Good character tries to follow the laws of whichever land he is in, but when the laws go against his goodly alignment he must try to use the laws to uphold his goodly alignments. However, when this fails he can begin to ignore his lawful alignment to act as neutral and then chaotic against the laws (or society) that are now viewed as neutral, then evil. A lawful good paladin seeks the advice of a ranger in a land where his usual beliefs and ideals have failed him.
When a Chaotic Good character begins to notice the chaotic nature of his society is against the good axis that character can seek help from a lawful source. A chaotic good ranger seeks the advice of a paladin in a land where his usual beliefs and ideals have failed him.
Does that make any sense?
For Paladins or anyone who has a code that they must followed they must hold society to the same level of those vows. Take the description of Riddleport, for example:
Paladins
Although none of Riddleport’s prominent faiths support
paladins among their ranks, one occasionally encounters
such valorous warriors amid the city’s bustling crowds.
Some holy warriors take it as a divine challenge to bring
the word of their deity to the irreverent, especially those
clustered in cities of sin like Riddleport. Occasional
wandering paladins of Iomedae and Abadar come to the
city in the hopes of wresting a few souls from darkness
and combating the wickedness rampant in the city,
but most end up departing in frustration. More than
one such holy warrior has disappeared in Riddleport,
as crusades against the city’s potent crime lords rarely
last long or end well. Paladins of Erastil and Sarenrae
tend to have slightly more success in the city, taking
lighter approaches and ingraining themselves among
the people by providing education and healing to the
frontier city. Also, paladins of other faiths sometimes
pass through the City of Cyphers, hoping to cleanse the
city by ridding the still dangerous countryside of savages
and monstrous threats. In doing so, most hope to pave
the way for more decent folk to come to the region and
change the city over time.
The Warlord of Riddleport is the most powerful crimelord in Riddleport, even if he is trying to gain credibility to his reign. From the description a paladin could wage war against riddleport's authority (the warlord) to try and wrench the--not so--good people of the city from their ruler.
Not that the paladin would succeed, even at level 20 with a level 20 party behind him, but he could try. The army of a major city will crush any small group of adventurers unless they try to assassinate the ruler, but assassination is dishonorable and therefore off limits for a paladin since it goes against his Vows.
Does that make any sense? The paladin needs to think about the massive bloodshed that will ensue during a war to usurp a major leader by force. Perhaps the paladin tries to force elections, or convince the people to rise up and oppose the rule of the current leader. Once the political leaders begin to "quell" the political opposition, but if the non-violent resistance turns into an all out insurrection, E.G. a revolution, then the Paladin will rise as the opposite ruler and his fate tied to the rebellion. He will fight and either rule his people in victory, or be killed in battle or tortured to death in defeat.
To make this simple you could have the Paladin meet with the leader(s) of the city that he is going to have to fight against. The Paladin tries to convince the leader(s) to give some sort of concession that will satisfy him and his worries about the leader(s) rule, laws, or actions. The Leader(s) have no desire, and laugh at him. They threaten his life, and have the guards drag the paladin out of their forum and throw him into the gutter of the streets on main of death should he return. Now his olive branch has been broken in half, the leader(s) have proven that the laws are evil, the leaders are evil, and that if he is to oppose them it will be as though opposing monsters to save the people of the town.
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Yeah a paladin thread
Yeah a paladin thread
Pretty much. It is important for people to understand that alignment and vows are to be debated between DMs and Paladins.
It isn't "my way or the highway" unless you're a crappy DM or simply do not want your PCs to play Paladins.
OK, so, when should/can a paladin STOP following a counties laws?
Whenever they're illegitimate. How that is defined is variable and may be situational even for a given Paladin.
And realistically, when doing so furthers the cause of greater good and law.Not every illegitiate law needs to be broken "just because".
Slightly off topic, but a mundane typical army is a joke in front of a caster with 9th lvl spells. It is just a Storm of Vengeance away from obliteration. While you are flying, invisible, shapechanged and astral projected.
There is 100 more soldiers where the ones you just obliterated came from, probably 1,000 more, maybe 10,000 more. Then there are mercenaries, assassins, bound and paid outsiders, pretty much everything that can kill you.
You're going to run out of AOE spells sooner or later, and then you're going to die.
I don't believe he was inveighing on the permanent invincibility of said caster,
he was just addressing the specific scenario of a caster facing one specific army.
Re: Paladins dealing with Evil ruler of City/etc, 'Assassination' that is dishonorable is not the only option besides open warfare with mass casualties. "Honorable" personal combat still works. The evil dude has his minions and may not want to play honorable himself, but you can deal with that and still pursue personal combat. You aren't going to face a full army of thousands for the most part, because it's incoherent to have a full army of thousands as PERSONAL BODYGUARDS. Most any location the leader in will have much more limited # of minions that can immediately defend the leader. You're just left with the STANDARD format of dealign with minions before getting to deal with BBEG. The Paladin's Code would come into play by probably preferring to avoid mass bloody combat with thousands of deaths, and preferring to take it to the top. In other words, precipitating just the type of thing suited for an adventure game, rather than mass combat military simulation.
It had always been my thoughts on paladins that a paladin followed the laws of HER authority to the best of her ability. if a Paladin that follows a god that is strictly against slavery in all forms enters a nation in which slavery is legal and encouraged (looking at you Cheliax) She is bound by her Deity and Code to do all that she can to improve the predicament of the slaves. however, she must also respect the authority of the land she is in, and slavery is legal. This is the conflict paladins have struggled with for centuries, a LG paladin in this situation would be required to speak out in favor of the slaves, and do her utmost to help them. Some options would be: to speak to the slaver, and attempt to show him the err of his ways, to purchase and subsequently free any slaves she encounters, to seek out proof within the laws of authority that the slaver has done something illegal, or to offer what care and succor she can to the slaves failing in all else. a paladin might offer herself, else her weaponry and armors, or other assorted wealth as trade for the slaves release. a paladin may not turn a blind eye to their plight however, nor can she order the wanton execution of the slaver, as she might be tempted to under the Code of her Deity.
A paladin in this situation might also go to the extreme, breaking shackles and freeing slaves by force, however this would be considered a theft, and she would have to either do the time in prison, pay fines, or seek atonement for her sins, this action would undoubtedly be frowned upon by her deity.
a notable exception, certain paladin codes and deities require the execution of Evil, and those who have recently committed evil acts, and do not offer redemption, if such a paladin were to find an evil slaver torturing a slave for no reason, apparent or otherwise, they are well within their code to execute the evildoer, however they would also be placing themselves at risk with the authorities of the nation they are in and would have to deal with that by turning themselves in, paying fines, seeking atonement, else dealing with the consequences of their actions.
yet another exception, if any paladin were to find a chellish slaver smuggling slaves out of, say, andoran, they would again be well within their rights to apprehend this slaver and smuggler, and see him to the proper authorities, or if his code allows, become the authority himself, EVEN IF THE SLAVER CROSSED THE BORDER INTO CHELIAX. becasue a crime is legal in your nation, if you are caught doing it in another nation, you have still broken the law. a paladin in this situation might have to wait for months, but he would need to inform authorities that the laws had been broken, and im sure cheliax would be more than happy to avoid issues with andoran over the situation.
this is just how ive always seen it, my tuppence worth if you will, there are alot of exceptions within the paladin code if you know what to look for, but just so there is alot of rigidity that may not have been immediatly apparent.
I don't believe he was inveighing on the permanent invincibility of said caster,
he was just addressing the specific scenario of a caster facing one specific army.
I'm not really sure why he deigned to totally diverge from the thread topic so blatantly.
Indeed, and all it really takes is for the villainous party to hire a Nat-weapons dragon disciple who can cast anti-magic field on himself. So begins the Dragon Disciple Delivery Service of grapple, shackle, fly up 200-ft, fly home.
Killing a company of weak foes is easy, but that isn't what one needs to be scared of, and even then one should expect them all to have anti-magic fields on them afterwards when the survivors tell about how most of them died. People who rule cities have money to spare, and wizards tend to like giving "favors" for well paid yearly positions where they don't have to do much. A year of relax.
Slightly off topic, but a mundane typical army is a joke in front of a caster with 9th lvl spells. It is just a Storm of Vengeance away from obliteration. While you are flying, invisible, shapechanged and astral projected.There is 100 more soldiers where the ones you just obliterated came from, probably 1,000 more, maybe 10,000 more. Then there are mercenaries, assassins, bound and paid outsiders, pretty much everything that can kill you.
You're going to run out of AOE spells sooner or later, and then you're going to die.
The army may break ranks and flee when they see dozens of men wiped out with a wave of the hand. They're low-level Warriors, they don't know that the caster's spells are limited. And when you start getting into high-level assassins and bound outsiders, that's not a mundane army anymore.
If things get too hairy, the mage can simply teleport out and repeat. Inflict losses on the enemy army until they go home and convince their leaders to leave you alone.
Armies are poor tools of statecraft in a world where high level adventurers exist. They're relegated to policing the populace and dealing with issues too minor to be worth the high-level adventurers' time.
Or if that mass army can somehow win Initiative (or at least hundreds/thousands of them) vs. a not perfectly prepared Caster, and at least all their Nat 20 ranged attacks can cause a major problem for said Caster. (either as regular attacks, or readied)
Regardless, fighting mass armies is probably not the preferred approach of a Paladin, because most of those soldiers probably don't REALLY need to be killed, even if they're not the best people. The game is setup to pursue smaller scale combat, and that's usually a way to take down a BBEG just dealing with the specific minions in their personal milieu as necessary, not every member of the king's army.
stuff
Yeah... Um, time to take this to another thread, OK?
But props for the smooth transition from "9th spellcaster facing mundane army" to "fully prepared 9th spell level caster who apparently set the terms of the encounter facing mundane army" and why not just add on shifting the terms from any/all 9th spell level caster to apparently a high INT Wizard?
The best part was when you start referring to said caster as "I"... Even before starting in with "If I am a caster", in fact.
No caster discussion is complete without wholesale identification to the uber power caster. That would be missing the point.
Yeah, other thread. Please.
Munchkin rules apply to what a Paladin should or should not do.
"Any disputes in the rules should be settled by loud arguments with the owner of the game having the last word."
The reality is that Paladins have a tendency to always feel like they are walking on thin ice. Whenever they do something that would be evil give the PC a will save DC 1, that he may willfully fail to commit acts that go against his vows. That way the player knows what is going on.
There is also including in the Paladin's class a way to know if something he does will be against his vows, alignment, or deity as a swift or free action.But props for the smooth transition from "9th spellcaster facing mundane army" to "fully prepared 9th spell level caster who apparently set the terms of the encounter facing mundane army" and why not just add on shifting the terms from any/all 9th spell level caster to apparently a high INT Wizard?
Just to point this out, if your wizard slaughtered this army you would have all of the nations allied to the nation whose army you just annihilated giving a call for heroes to kill off these "evil murderers and enemies of the state."
The mundane army might win, since they aren't going to just be marching up to you but instead hiding and waiting to ambush the party.After that they are going to focus on defense as assassins and hordes of all kinds of powerful and cool enemies to hunt down the party.
Another possibility is that emissaries are sent to the non-allied or neutral countries to also make you an enemy of the state there as well. Where are you going to go when you have nowhere where you are safe from the state?
You are totally going to survive for a long time when there is an insane amount of money on your heads. Expect to be hounded everywhere you go, and good luck getting that 8-hours of sleep you need to recharge your spells.
You will win the fight, but you will lose the war. The reach of a country is so far beyond your gods among men, and pushing the agenda could lead to some major repercussions. Mortals making pacts with Pit-fiends, Balors, or Olethrodaemons, and you being responsible for the fall of said country into true evil. Expect that portal to that plane becoming permanent for the most part, and this country being a second world wound.
But props for the smooth transition from "9th spellcaster facing mundane army" to "fully prepared 9th spell level caster who apparently set the terms of the encounter facing mundane army" and why not just add on shifting the terms from any/all 9th spell level caster to apparently a high INT Wizard?Just to point this out, if your wizard slaughtered this army you would have all of the nations allied to the nation whose army you just annihilated giving a call for heroes to kill off these "evil murderers and enemies of the state."
The mundane army might win, since they aren't going to just be marching up to you but instead hiding and waiting to ambush the party.
After that they are going to focus on defense as assassins and hordes of all kinds of powerful and cool enemies to hunt down the party.
Another possibility is that emissaries are sent to the non-allied or neutral countries to also make you an enemy of the state there as well. Where are you going to go when you have nowhere where you are safe from the state?
You are totally going to survive for a long time when there is an insane amount of money on your heads. Expect to be hounded everywhere you go, and good luck getting that 8-hours of sleep you need to recharge your spells.
You will win the fight, but you will lose the war. The reach of a country is so far beyond your gods among men, and...
three words. Create Demiplane, Greater.
Playing the paladin sometimes puts players into tough situations that have no good answer. Do you follow the laws of the land, or do you do what is right? Honestly, it's a kludge to say that the paladin is going to do what is right, even though the laws are bad - and it's a kludge because it's something a Neutral Good character would do on the surface. Provided that this paladin's code does not forbid this, then breaking the law to do good is just fine for the paladin, though you could walk the tightrope of following the law and trying to destroy it from within (politicking), which paladins are sometimes called upon to do.
I'm guessing that this paladin follows Arshea (just a guess), the Empyreal Lord of Freedom, Physical Beauty and Sexuality (though you could just as easily follow Falayna, Neshen, Lorris or Shei). Arshea does not have an established paladin code (to the best of my knowledge), so you might want to create one. If I were doing so, I might develop the following code:
- The rights of others come before my own. No one can truly be free unless all are, and I must do what I can to bring freedom to others before myself.
- When seeking freedom for myself and for others, I shall do no harm if it can be prevented, nor shall I allow harm to be done in the name of liberty.
- Freedom can be gained via redemption from sins, and it should be sought after whenever possible. I must offer freedom to those that are willing to receive it.
- Freedom of the body is secondary to freedom of the soul. Some souls desire darkness, and they must be free to pursue it. I shall liberate such souls from their bodies so that they can no longer restrict the freedoms of others.
- My love is unending, and I must not restrict it in any way.
- I shall give hope to others in need, both by the words from my lips and by the acts of my hands.
- My body is my temple, and I shall not defile it. The desires of my body shall be heeded, provided that it causes no harm to others.
- If I must take up the flail to bring freedom to others, I must recognise that I am free to act. There is no shame in acting to preserve liberty.
- I take joy in physical pleasures, but I must also be mindful of emotional pleasures as well. Honesty, forthrightness and honor bring such pleasures to myself, to others, and to my god.
[T]hree words. Create Demiplane, Greater.
Yeah, but then you're just running away to give up the fight. You could also use Wish to erase yourselves from all memory and history, save for from each other.
That is generally what respecting legitimate authority is, obeying their laws, I mean.I don't see anything in the paladin code that requires the paladin to follow a country's laws.
Respecting authority is not the same thing as obeying it. I respect my enemies. But I will still work against them.
Not at all. If the code said that "she obey legitimate authority" then you would be correct. But it doesn't.
As I said. There is a difference between respect and obedience. I respect a clever enemy. I respect a rampaging dragon. I respect the position and authority of a foreign king.
But I do not obey them. In fact, I destroy them if it furthers my cause.
The biggest thing I see about paladins following the laws forgets one thing. Not all laws or authority are equal. There is a hierarchy of authority a paladin follows. If an authority from a lower source conflicts with a higher one the paladin ignores the lower source and follows the higher source. As long as the paladin follows this he will not fall. If for example a knight of a kingdom gives an order in direct conflict with his kings, who’s word is to be obeyed?
The highest authority is the paladin’s deity himself. The next highest is the laws of the paladins religion. After these come the mortal authorities, and may vary slightly depending on the paladin. A paladin who is a member of a secular order would probably obey those first, and then the mortal agents of his deity. A religious paladin will obey his superiors in the religious order first. Assuming the paladin belongs to a religious order the next authority are the secular of his own country or culture. After this comes the local laws, and last of all would be the local authorities.
So if the paladin of the god of freedom who’s deity does not allow slavery enters a country where slavery is legal then he does not have to recognize those laws unless his deity tells him to. This is not to say he has to go out of his way and attack all slaver, or engage in obviously suicidal behavior. Also keep in mind that a paladin must worship a deity no more than one alignment away from his own(Lawful Good).
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Frankly, there's virtually no law-chaos stuff in the class at all, and it takes a distant backseat to the good-evil.
That said, talk to your GM, he's the final arbiter ... ask 100 board denizens what is and isn't Kosher to the paladin code, you'll get at least 90 different answers.
i represent that remark
That said, talk to your GM, he's the final arbiter ...
Just about always the right answer. Nothing else matters so long as there is harmony and fun at the table.