Just a quick clarification: are these places religious, secular, private or public... or all of the above? I'm having a hard time imagining them but I must be honest I don't have tons of Golarion-specific material (I own the Guide to Darkmoon Veil and a couple modules; otherwise I troll these boards and the wiki)
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Just a quick clarification: are these places religious, secular, private or public... or all of the above? I'm having a hard time imagining them but I must be honest I don't have tons of Golarion-specific material (I own the Guide to Darkmoon Veil and a couple modules; otherwise I troll these boards and the wiki)
All of the above. With a world as large as Golarion, anyone who wants to found a university and who has sufficient resources can do so. Anyone who has any specific vision of what a university should be can found one in accord with that vision.
Is there anything that qualifies a school as a university other than someone saying it is? Where can I read more about specific universities in the setting?
Is there anything that qualifies a school as a university other than someone saying it is?
Other people agreeing with that person.
The Inner Sea Magic book talks some about "schools of magic," if you want some samples. Of course, not all of the schools of magic are "universities," and not all universities would be focused on magic. In the real world, universities were created first as seminaries, legal academies, and medical schools.
Lepidstadt University in Ustalav is one of the most respected schools in the Avistan. They put a big emphasis on the "mortal sciences": medicine, mathematics, hard science; all that fun stuff that let mundane folks accomplish great things that can rival even the miracles of magic. Also, they have a reputation for training fine duelists, and dueling fraternities such as Malkenclaw and Gateguard are well-regarded.
EDIT: Typically, a University is a collection of Colleges, which each encompass a broadly-conceived type of learning and overseen by a separate functionary (ie, the Dean of the College of Arts and Science). Colleges are further broken up into "schools" of specific disciplines or approaches.
I've never used the Golarion setting before but I've got the Guide to Darkmoon Vale and it's been inspiring me to check out more of the setting. I have created a fair amount of detail for my own homebrew of Karnoss and would like to use some of Golarion to fuel ideas there. In particular I started coming up with a small city called Inderwick and wanted to base a university there.
I went over to the Pathfinder Wiki and read about the University of Liepstadt. That kind of seems like what I'm thinking of. A kind of a place you might find a young alchemist named Viktor Von Frankenstein or something. That's in Ustlav correct?
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The schools that are mentioned seem to be more focused, e.g. Wizardry.
That said, Wizards and Alchemists to an extent are well placed to pursue many of the Knowledges.
(more magical stuff for former, more Healing etc for the latter)
Churches of Gods of Knowledge may very well sponsor the most broad ranging schools of learning,
irrespective of the direct relevance to the Deity in question or the researcher/students' allegiance to that Deity.
Regions like Rahadoum would have all schools be wholly secular, or at least as far as the authorities know of.
Lepidstadt is indeed in Ustalav. There is a rough analogue to Frankenstein (and his monster) as well, in the person of
So not every major city has a university then?
EDIT: Typically, a University is a collection of Colleges, which each encompass a broadly-conceived type of learning and overseen by a separate functionary (ie, the Dean of the College of Arts and Science). Colleges are further broken up into "schools" of specific disciplines or approaches.
I'd like to point out that that's actually a rather modern interpretation of a "university." A typical medieval university did not divide by subject, but instead by residence and/or source of support. Oxford University is a good example of how a typical medieval university works -- a scholar at New College would be studying the same course of study (in fact, many universities only had one course of study) as a scholar at Oriel College but would be taking tutorials from a different professor.
So not every major city has a university then?
Not typically, no. Even in the early 20th century in the United States and western Europe, not every major city had a university.
So not every major city has a university then?
I'd say not, no; there's just not enough people with the time and wealth to devote a large part of their lives to study to justify wide-spread higher education. Ustalav, for instance, has three main places of higher learning: Lepidstadt University, Tatterdemalion, and The Quarterfaux Archives. That said, the cities in Golarion are fairly cosmopolitan, so it wouldn't be out of the question to place at least a small school in major locations (especially capitols) for characters to have attended.
EDIT: And thanks, Orfamay, for the lesson in the more-classical University structures!
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So not every major city has a university then?I'd say not, no; there's just not enough people with the time and wealth to devote a large part of their lives to study to justify wide-spread higher education.
And furthermore, there's not the demand for higher education that there is today in the real world. In Golarion, if I want to become a doctor, a lawyer, a wizard, or an engineer, I suspect it's easier and more practical to apprentice myself appropriately than it is to study the profession in an academic setting.
Again, even in the real world, the idea that you have to go to school to become a doctor is largely a 20th century invention. For example, the Mayo Clinic, today one of the world's top medical schools, was founded in the late 19th century by a doctor and his two sons whom he had trained privately as his apprentices.
Basically, it's not unreasonable for a character to have a university education. But most characters would neither need nor want one; it's not a basic assumption the way it might be in D20 Modern.
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after doing some wiki magic Universities
And here are Schools And Arcane Colleges Remember the wiki i all fan driven, so while we are striving to get things written, not everything will be there.
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So not every major city has a university then?I'd say not, no; there's just not enough people with the time and wealth to devote a large part of their lives to study to justify wide-spread higher education. Ustalav, for instance, has three main places of higher learning: Lepidstadt University, Tatterdemalion, and The Quarterfaux Archives. That said, the cities in Golarion are fairly cosmopolitan, so it wouldn't be out of the question to place at least a small school in major locations (especially capitols) for characters to have attended.
EDIT: And thanks, Orfamay, for the lesson in the more-classical University structures!
There's also the Opera in Karcau for the arts.
Ustalav actually has a surprising number of important institutions of higher learning.
So a school is a school. A college can be a stand-alone school or part of a university. A university is a series of either locations or colleges which either features a single area of study or multiple disciplines.
Not every major city has a school/college/university. They're not generally needed (apprenticeships) and obviously require vast resources to create and maintain.
Could you say, then, that the Grand Lodge in Absalom is a school of some kind? They train Pathfinders, keep extensive libraries and reliquaries and the facility is staffed in part by teaching experts.
There's just SO much variety in this setting that I'm trying to wrap my head around it all. I'm also trying, as I mentioned above, to pick which area I like to draw inspiration for my own homebrew.
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So a school is a school. A college can be a stand-alone school or part of a university. A university is a series of either locations or colleges which either features a single area of study or multiple disciplines.
Not every major city has a school/college/university. They're not generally needed (apprenticeships) and obviously require vast resources to create and maintain.
Could you say, then, that the Grand Lodge in Absalom is a school of some kind? They train Pathfinders, keep extensive libraries and reliquaries and the facility is staffed in part by teaching experts.
There's just SO much variety in this setting that I'm trying to wrap my head around it all.
Well, that accurately reflects the real world. Today, in the United States, a "university" is whatever I want it to be, as long as I file the appropriate paperwork with the appropriate state agency. There is no oversight, content approval, or even quality control. I could found the Wyoming Beekeeping University ("Go WBU!") and offer degrees in Experimental Metaphysics today, although I'd have to type fast to get the paperwork done in the next few hours.
The big question you need to address, IMHO, is "what does a university degree mean, socially?" Historically, the university degree was simply a license to teach granted by the Catholic Church; you needed such approval if you wanted to teach at a church-affilliated organization, and since the Church was a continent-spanning organization, this meant that this credential transferred all over the Western world, and formed the basis of the modern university.
There's no reason in Golarion that a credential from Cheliax should matter to someone wanting to hold a job in Varisia or vice versa. This means there's likely to be even more variation in schooling, credentials, and whatnot.
So, in direct answer: The Grand Lodge teaches people, ergo it's a school. It's not clear that training-to-be-a-Pathfinder would be something that anyone else would find useful or important, so a "degree" from the Grand Lodge is not necessarily going to be respected by anyone other than the Pathfinder Society, nor is it clear that training at the Grand Lodge is necessary to become a Pathfinder.
On the other hand, if the Duke of Chutney needs someone to tutor his sons, a Lodge-trained Pathfinder might be a good candidate if that training includes the appropriate knowledge for a ducal heir. If this is the case, this might mean that Lodge training is a path to good civil service jobs and the Lodge could serve the role historically played by medieval universities such as Oxford, Bologna, and Montpelier.
I would actually love to see a 'Schools of Golarion' type book. I think they hold a lot of great quest hooks and I've tried to have more than one character of mine have his roots on academia. It's ultimately a small thing but I think it would add great depth to the setting.
The big question you need to address, IMHO, is "what does a university degree mean, socially?" Historically, the university degree was simply a license to teach granted by the Catholic Church; you needed such approval if you wanted to teach at a church-affilliated organization, and since the Church was a continent-spanning organization, this meant that this credential transferred all over the Western world, and formed the basis of the modern university.
There's no reason in Golarion that a credential from Cheliax should matter to someone wanting to hold a job in Varisia or vice versa. This means there's likely to be even more variation in schooling, credentials, and whatnot.
I guess that's part of what's throwing me. In my homebrew it's easy; while the couple of unis I have are secular in their fluff, they are well respected throughout the whole small land of Karnoss. A degree from one of them then is a mark of honor and imparts bonuses to such as Diplomacy in certain situations.
But you're right OQ; why would anyone in Darkmoon Vale care if you've got a degree in Natural Studies from Liepstadt University when you show up in Olfden looking for work. They'd ask "Can you swing an axe? How do you feel about marching in line while wearing a diamond on your shirt? Like mud?" and your fancy piece of paper wouldn't be worth much.
So are the schools of Golarion just fluff and quest generators or is there some socio-economic benefit granted to their graduates? I suppose if there were benefits they would be local. If you attend the Conservatory at Karcu your performances within the surrounding country might gain a +1 to the skill checks to earn money or something.
Are there traits associated with schools? Should there be?
You could assign many of the "x is a class skill for you and you get a +1 trait bonus on it" traits to an appropriate school/college/university. Not sure if there are any listed.
Otherwise there are Arcane Graduate and Elemental Pupil, both of which assume an (unnamed) arcane school. Or you can roll your own university traits, as appropriate to what you think one might have learned there. Drinking, sleeping late and putting traffic cones on statues, for example.
rkmoon Vale care if you've got a degree in Natural Studies from Liepstadt University when you show up in Olfden looking for work. They'd ask "Can you swing an axe? How do you feel about marching in line while wearing a diamond on your shirt? Like mud?" and your fancy piece of paper wouldn't be worth much.
And, of course, this is also realistic. I've lived in places where the same thing applies.
So are the schools of Golarion just fluff and quest generators or is there some socio-economic benefit granted to their graduates? I suppose if there were benefits they would be local. If you attend the Conservatory at Karcu your performances within the surrounding country might gain a +1 to the skill checks to earn money or something.
Are there traits associated with schools? Should there be?
I would say that the schools are largely fluff that are part of the character's background and environment.
As a matter of game balance, I shouldn't get any mechanical advantage by writing "university graduate" on my sheet, any more than I should get an advantage by writing "eyes: green" or "height: 6 ft, 9 in." But writing "university graduate" gives me an in-game justification for putting skill points into Knowledge (religion) or Linguistics or some other things that aren't part of a ranger's stereotypical background.
Basically, every skill point I learned somewhere. So if I know the Heal skill, that might be because I studied Natural Studies at Liepstadt, because I apprenticed at St. Valentine's Hospital, or simply because I worked with the field surgeon in a mercenary company. I might know Dwarven because I worked in a dwarven mining community, or because I studied Dwarven Lit at Kitharodian Academy.
Similarly, a university background can be a justification and description of a trait. Maybe I picked up the History of Heresy trait because I studied religion in a Razmiran university.....
You could assign many of the "x is a class skill for you and you get a +1 trait bonus on it" traits to an appropriate school/college/university. Not sure if there are any listed.
That seems overkill. There's no reason why "Ease of Faith," "Scholar of the Great Beyond," or "Dangerously Curious" should be confined to any specific universities. I think I met all three types at good old Whatsamatta U.
I'm not saying that any given trait is only taught at a given university or vice versa, merely that it's a logical in-game justification for a trait. As you say, how you get a trait is essentially fluff.
And likewise, people may study at a specific school or training center or monastery, which is the 'fluff' basis of their Fighter/Monk/etc Class Abilities. I don't really see the point of pointing this out as "fluff". This is the Campaign Setting. Things in it which carry no specific mechanical benefit are still central to how a gaming campaign is resolved. Mechanics do not really have priority there. TO the extent that schools teach Class Skills, Feats, or Skills, there is mechanical correlation. That isn't usually an EXCLUSIVE relationship that prevents other characters learning those things in other ways. So you could choose another "fluff" source for those if you wish, but it remains that choosing "fluff" that does map to Class Abilities/Feats/Skills IS a way to introduce that ability into the game world. If that is a useful/strong ability, then the "fluff" of that school is certainly justified in game.
Again, even in the real world, the idea that you have to go to school to become a doctor is largely a 20th century invention. For example, the Mayo Clinic, today one of the world's top medical schools, was founded in the late 19th century by a doctor and his two sons whom he had trained privately as his apprentices.Basically, it's not unreasonable for a character to have a university education. But most characters would neither need nor want one; it's not a basic assumption the way it might be in D20 Modern.
I would say it is quite a bit older than that i.e I would think the University of Edinburgh Medical School (est 1726), the birthplace of the Edinburgh model of medical teaching that was operated around the world might disagree with some of that.
A barber/surgeon or a 'healer' might not have gone to a university, but I would expect someone styled as a Doctor or physician would have done so.
Nope. Actually, the first medical school in the world is the University of Salerno, 9th century AD. The University of Bologna started giving out medical degrees in the 13th century. But until the 20th century, very few medical practitioners bothered with medical school.
The word "doctor" is actually misused (in the 20th century). It technically means "teacher" and refers to someone licensed to teach (at a university), and applies just as much to lawyers and theologians as to physicians -- and had nothing to do with one's ability to practice the profession of choice. If you wanted to practice medicine, the most common way to do it until the early 20th century was typically to apprentice yourself to a working physician, apothecary, surgeon, or whatever, sometimes after a year or so of lectures at a university but without taking any sort of degree. The AMA was founded in the mid-19th century as an organization to advocate for formal medical education precisely because formal medical education was so rare. Dr. Flexner's 1910 plea for real medical education is instructive.
And even today, surgeons in the UK are called "Mister," as a hangover from the days when "physicians" were required to have degrees (in the mid 1800s) but "surgeons" were not, and most of the GPs were surgeon-apothecaries.
True. More often it was:
"You woodcrafter! Can you use saw? Great. You are now our chirurgy. Go and make an amputation as we hold the patient still."
Something else to remember is that "medicine" itself looked very different in the mid 19th century than it does today. In a nutshell, there wasn't much that doctors could actually do. There weren't any drugs as we would recognize them, and if you needed some sort of treatment, you'd go to an apothecary and get a dose of willow bark or feverfew. I believe the first actual pharmacoactive compound was isolated in the 1820s.
So, basically, if you needed leechcraft or trauma medicine, you'd go to a barber-surgeon. If you needed some sort of "drug," you'd go to an herbalist or an apothecary. A typical GP, the person you'd see if you just weren't feeling well, was often a surgeon-apothecary, both at once. What is there left for a "physician" to do?
The practical answer is that "physicians" were typically what we would call diagnosticians today; in the case where the treatment wasn't obvious, they'd do physical examinations and figure out exactly what was wrong with you, especially in the case of chronic conditions. But this usually didn't help, because once you had been diagnosed with something, there weren't a lot of effective treatments available, so the usual "treatment" involved something like "take a trip to the seaside and drink mineral water." Antibiotics and even sulfa drugs were in the future -- the first effective antimicrobial drug (arsphenamine) was only discovered in 1909. Prior to that, if you showed up at the doctors and he said you had syphillis, there was literally no effective treatment (the most common treatment was mercury, which was basically useless).
Its funny: I started this thread to see where universities and colleges existed in Golarion so that I could do a little research. Said investigation was twofold: what do these fantasy schools look and feel like, and more importantly why would PCs/NPCS attend them.
My answers so far have been:
Look and feel: anything you want since there's no in-depth examples
Use: seemingly none
The humor comes from the fact that my research into real-life universities has basically come up with similar results. Colleges and universities, most of the time defined as 2 separate faciliities, can basically in history look like anything from a guy's garage to an ivy-riddled campus. Up until recent times they were basically just an excuse to consolidate bad intel and waste rich-folk's money while most everyone learned what they needed to know for a profession or career path by mentoring and apprenticeship.
Karnoss, my homebrew, still has no concrete write-up on the 5 universities mentioned in my player guide...
The humor comes from the fact that my research into real-life universities has basically come up with similar results. Colleges and universities, most of the time defined as 2 separate faciliities, can basically in history look like anything from a guy's garage to an ivy-riddled campus. Up until recent times they were basically just an excuse to consolidate bad intel and waste rich-folk's money while most everyone learned what they needed to know for a profession or career path by mentoring and apprenticeship.
Yup. The university was and is a home for "learning for its own sake." The traditional university education is one in the "liberal arts" (artes liberales), defined as such precisely because they were supposed to "liberate" the mind from the narrow demands of learning for a profession (which were considered to be the "servile arts," because they are learning in the service of someone or something).
History isn't supposed to be useful and generally isn't.
As a complete aside, I had a customer come to my graphics shop wanting me to add family names to an old family tree done a century ago by the Scottish College of Heralds, all done caligraphically. So I scanned the existing calligraphy and used letter by letter to recreate the new additions to the family tree using the same hand-drawn letters.
Now the reason I bring this up, was one of the family members from the 19th century, had no education past the 6th grade, but because he was literally the seventh son of a seventh son, he was given the title "Doctor" at birth and carried that title until his death. In no way did this person ever practice medicine, law, theology or other collegiate trained occupation.
That really changes the meaning of 'doctor'.
At the Alabaster Academy in Kintargo (Cheliax) a student might learn to be a medical doctor. They have courses in humanoid physiology, anatomy, and surgery (presumably hands-on). (Source Demons Revisited, pg. 8.)
CJ
Well, the most important lessons of higher education were mostly ancient languages, debating and other skills which qualify for higher society. The study of arithmetic, sciences or medical arts was only for curiocity.
More that education, schools have been for making friends and contacts. And it does give some social backing if the person who you are talking belongs to same club as you.
When I'm GM, the higher education is also required for license of practise of magical arts, which is basically get free from jail card, if character is suspected of illegal witching, though it wont stop angry mob from lynching you.
Not Golarion, but Rite Publishing's Kaidan setting of Japanese horror uses the concept from feudal Japan that the only 'licensed' arcane spellcasters are graduates of the Ministry of Onmyodo, which was both an arcane academy, and a branch of the imperial government controlling who can and cannot be arcane practitioners. Not that there were no other arcane practitioners in ancient Japan, its just that those who are not graduates of the Onmyodo school are unsanctioned, subject to arrest, incarceration and torture.
As far as I know the Ministry of Onmyodo was the only arcane academy in the real world (not that they actually learned to practice magic, at least they believed it was true.)
Onmyoji (wizards) were officially posted at the imperial palace, all provincial daimyo palaces and in service to the shogun.
Is there anything that qualifies a school as a university other than someone saying it is? Where can I read more about specific universities in the setting?University is a modern term. What distinguishes it from College. (which is the term you'd find in Ancient Greece for example) is post graduate study and research.
If by "modern" you mean 12th century, maybe.