Martial characters should have nice things Part I: What should martial characters be able to do?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I like the idea of awesome acts per day and link them with the physical attributes and times per day can be the average of the two physical attributes bonus points.

So have a few awesome acts in each category and force the warrior to choose one

Con/Dex Str/Dex Str/Con

So if you have a +3 in Strength and +2 in Dex you would get 2 awesome acts a day in the Str/Dex category. Something like autohit or double move etc....Con/Dex could have a shake it off or impervious to physical 1 round fa etc.... Str/Con could have double base bonus or impervious to magic 1 round fa.


Detect Magic wrote:

Not this:

** spoiler omitted **

If I wanted to play the Hulk, I'd play another game. I'm sure there's some sort of comic book superhero tabletop RPG out there somewhere...

I do have to point out that this is a 6th teir ability for champions, and from what I understand, going mythic basiclly turns you into a superhero. So in a world where one can buy magic items to fly, teleport, or whatnot, I see no problem whatsoever in being able to jump for miles. It doesn't let you be accurate, and can leave you suspended in air, possibly miles high.

By that point, one would almost be a demigod, so it seems fine. With the 1 minute sprint before the jump, it's not like it's really useable in combat.

Now for the OP's question, I personally would love to be able to make a swordsman (or swordswoman) which, at higher levels could slice a hole in the fabric of space to travel between points, either in one world, or between. Doesn't even really need combat usage, it would just feel like a cool ability to have.


Anzyr wrote:
Because one can be determined: Ie. Jesus did X. We know what he did, for example he can turn water into wine. No one is going to argue he can turn rocks into wine. The other is descriptive: The son of God. What does that mean in terms of thing can be done? Absolutely nothing.
Jesus wrote:
I and my Father are one.

Jesus IS Yawheh. To think this is not true requires either ignorance, complete rejection of New Testament scripture, or bottomless theological self delusion.

The ability to create an infinite universe in finite time requires an infinite caster level. Not arbitrarily high like Pun Pun, actually infinite.

Shiva presents the same issues. In one denomination of Hinduism he is an equal part of a triune god with Brahma, the creator; and Vishnu, the maintainer. In another he holds all three roles. That means infinite caster level again.


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You assume it means infinite caster level. Why? Wizards can totally create worlds. So Yawheh doesn't exactly have a monopoly there. And we know it didn't take him 7 days so time isn't a major concern. I'm sure a Wizard with lots of Simulcrum support can get it done in a few billion years no problem.


"Jesus IS Yawheh. To think this is not true requires either ignorance, complete rejection of New Testament scripture, or bottomless theological self delusion." - Atarlost

I guess Thomas Jefferson was ignorant or delusional.

I like the tales of Aesop, the history of Rome and Greek mythology. Just because I don't take them as fact doesn't mean I have to reject them entirely.


Who is rejecting them? I'm just comparing them to another thing and pointing out said other thing is capable of it. That's all. If the fact they do not compare as favorably as some might like is "rejecting them entirely" then ya guilty as charged.


Anzyr wrote:
Who is rejecting them? I'm just comparing them to another thing and pointing out said other thing is capable of it. That's all. If the fact they do not compare as favorably as some might like is "rejecting them entirely" then ya guilty as charged.

I don't think anybody's arguing that what Jesus is recorded as doing could be done by a 9th level cleric in-game.

Where the fallacy occurs is when it's taken for granted that this is the limit of Jesus' (i.e., God's) powers. Really, all that we can say is that his powers were at least those of a 9th level cleric in-game.

Everything since then has been Anzyr's insisting on the fallacy, and my reiterating the point over and over again.

To put it another way: a 5-year-old can tie his shoes, but that doesn't mean that you can correctly deduce I must be five years old if you observe me tying my shoes. That's not how brain-think works.


I'm nailing it down to specifics aegrisomnia, because without specifics the conversation is one-sided. That is not a fallacy. You are taking for granted the rule are a limit on the Wizards power, which would be the same fallacy, while I'm trying to have a meaningful discussion about what each is actually capable of. For example, Yahweh claims to have created the world in 7 days. Now that's obviously inaccurate and thus not very specific. But "can turn water into wine", "Resurrect from the dead in 3 days." "Heal the blind/lame." Those are all a bit more specific and thus able to be compared.

Whether those specifics are the limit of Jesus' powers or not is irrelevant, because by that logic whether or not the abilities listed in the PF rule set are the limit of a 20th level Wizards powers is an equally valid question. So lets compare specifics, since there's actual value in that.


Anzyr wrote:
I'm nailing it down to specifics aegrisomnia, because without specifics the conversation is one-sided.

Well, I can't very well be to blame if the very nature of the conversation is one-sided. My original post on this matter - the one you responded to - states in clear terms that it applies only if you accept everything that the Bible says about Jesus. If you've been having a different conversation this whole time, that would explain the lack of mutual understanding, though by default I assume people read and understand my posts when they're replying.

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That is not a fallacy.

So I am five years old? I should probably go tell my mom I'm on the Internet again.

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You are taking for granted the rule are a limit on the Wizards power

Technically, I can go get a list of RAW limitations on a 20th level wizard's power; in theory, such limitations exist. Where you make the fallacy is in assuming similar limitations apply to the deity of Judeo-Christian theology. Not only is such a thing never suggested, but the opposite is reiterated over, and over, and over again.

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while I'm trying to have a meaningful discussion about what each is actually capable of.

This sounds reasonable, until one realizes that you're determining what the Judeo-Christian deity can do based on the Bible, while ignoring parts of the Bible that clearly demonstrate that the limitations you're imagining are fictitious.

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For example, Yahweh claims to have created the world in 7 days. Now that's obviously inaccurate and thus not very specific.

Not sure where you're going with this, but it appears you're mixing up what the Judeo-Christian God is capable of with some sort of scientific, rational view. Forget about that. What we're talking about is what the Bible talks about... and the Bible makes it pretty clear that God could create everything instantly, if he wanted, or take billions of years, or whatever. None of that matters.

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But "can turn water into wine", "Resurrect from the dead in 3 days." "Heal the blind/lame." Those are all a bit more specific and thus able to be compared.

In fact, I've never questioned the assertion that these and other powers are possible, according to RAW, for casters of sufficient level. That doesn't have anything to do with the point I've been arguing since the first post.

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Whether those specifics are the limit of Jesus' powers or not is irrelevant, because by that logic whether or not the abilities listed in the PF rule set are the limit of a 20th level Wizards powers is an equally valid question.

Not so much. The Pathfinder rules set out what is possible; by default, if it has mechanical implications and isn't in the rules, it's not RAW. That means there are things a Wizard cannot do. Even if you take the Bible to be the ultimate source for every possible action that the Judeo-Christian deity can take, so that only things explicitly enumerated in the Bible are possible for God (note, unlike the Pathfinder rules, there is no such representation), it still says that all things are possible, without equivocation. Find even one thing, or combination or sequence of things, a Wizard cannot do, and there you go.

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So lets compare specifics, since there's actual value in that.

Alright. Let me quote a line from the rulebook relevant to what the Judeo-Christian deity can do:

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But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
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... you can do all things, and ... no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
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his understanding is beyond measure.

These are in the same book that says (rather, is almost universally interpreted as saying by those that believe what the book says is true) Jesus performed the miracles you reference and that Jesus = God.


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Original topic: "What should martial characters be able to do?"

Current topic: "This is how a 20th level Wizards compares to the Judeo-Christian God.
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This has to be one of the weirdest thread derails I've seen in quite a while.


Yes, he *said* that. Said is the key word. I assure a Wizard can in fact say "With me all things are possible." and "My understanding is beyond measure." so that's another 2 things the Wizard can do that Jesus/Yahweh can.

Without specifics we don't know if those things are true or not. They might be the might not be. I'm using only specific examples from the Bible, not extrapolating everything said to be accurate. Feel free to do the same with the Wizard. But I should note that RAW, a Wizard can research new spells, though there aren't any specific limitations.. why one would could probably make a spell called "Defeat Deity"... not very specific, but hey why stick to those right?


By your logic, I'm as powerful as a 20th level Wizard and God, since I can also say those things. It doesn't make any of it true.

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Without specifics we don't know if those things are true or not.

Your fascination with specifics dances joyously on the border between bizarre and entertaining. The Bible says in no uncertain terms that God can do anything. The Bible is the only source we have concerning what God can do. In the absence of more specific information regarding what he cannot do, there's no reasonable alternative than to just accept that description as representative of the Judeo-Christian deity. Note that this has nothing to do with belief or lack thereof in the account given; I have every reason to accept that Moby Dick was a white whale, if I choose to get into a discussion about what Moby Dick is.

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But I should note that RAW, a Wizard can research new spells, though there aren't any specific limitations.. why one would could probably make a spell called "Defeat Deity"... not very specific, but hey why stick to those right?
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Independent Research: A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. The cost to research a new spell, and the time required, are left up to GM discretion, but it should probably take at least 1 week and cost at least 1,000 gp per level of the spell to be researched. This should also require a number of Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) checks.

Researching new spells is mentioned explicitly in RAW as something that is house-ruled by the GM. As such, a Wizard absolutely cannot create any new spell in the game world, as reality (i.e., the GM) can simply choose not to allow it to come to pass.

Of course, if you have a GM that is lenient enough to allow a "Defeat Deity" spell, odds are you can probably make a Wizard as powerful as the Judeo-Christian deity in-game. The GM is of course free to let the wizard research a spell that allows his player to act as the GM in real life but for in-game benefits, and such a spell would almost put your character in a position of power w.r.t. the game world similar to that the Judeo-Christian God of all creation enjoys w.r.t. the real world, according to Biblical texts from which we derive all descriptions of him.

Of course, not even really then, since the Wizard isn't real and can't act as the GM, and therefore can't really do anything without restrictions. What the GM giveth, the GM can taketh away.


aegrisomnia wrote:

If you're prepared to admit the parts of the Bible that say Jesus performed those miracles, why are you so hesitant to admit the parts of the Bible that say Jesus is God and God has unlimited power? The Judeo-Christian God of all creation is less like an in-game deity like Iomedae and is more like the GM. Can a level 20 wizard beat the GM? What would that even mean? The GM can just make your character never have been.

Regarding "divinity" in the game world, I guess rather than just talking over each other, we might as well just let it go. We've both made our points and this is probable one of those "agree to disagree" situations. In-game, divinity means something - and not in the cheesecake sense.

False, the bible never says Jesus is god. Instead Heavenly Father says Jesus is his son after Jesus's baptism. Unless you think Jesus had a split personality, which would explain how he can be father and son at same time.

Jesus said he and his father are one, but he also said that his followers should be one. He wasn't asking them to fuse together into some monstrous being. He meant in purpose.


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VM mercenario wrote:
A 9th level cleric is better at miracles than Jesus. And people want Aragorn to be level 20th...

A point of contention. A cleric of a certain level may be able to perform most of what Jesus did, but they are not better at miracles than Jesus. Jesus could with but a thought summon an endless army of angles or end all of a creation and start a new one.

But even ignoring what Jesus could have done, let's look at what he did do.

He casted a epic spell for the price of being dead for 3 days. What spell? He made a persistent atonement field around all of existence that extended into the past and the future forever that to activate a commoner has to perform some sort of ritual (specifics are disputed).

My rough calculation of 3.5 EPIC spellcraft DCs would put that check somewhere into the 10^XX. So unless your cleric is punpun or an omnificer she would need a nigh uncountable amount of levels to ever perform that feat.


'Kay, can we maybe get off of Jesus as a subject? Like, honestly, discussion is fascinating but it deserves its own thread.


Can we not argue theology here?


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Starbuck_II wrote:
the bible never says Jesus is god

You need to pick up an NIV study bible. No serious scholar disputes that the bible claims that Jesus is God.


Lemmy wrote:

...

Original topic: "What should martial characters be able to do?"

Current topic: "This is how a 20th level Wizards compares to the Judeo-Christian God.
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This has to be one of the weirdest thread derails I've seen in quite a while.

Well, nobody has gotten around to mentioning the leader of Germany during WWII yet. That's something, at least.


Nathanael Love wrote:
Can we not argue theology here?

You know who else censored people? Hitler.


Marthkus wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
A 9th level cleric is better at miracles than Jesus. And people want Aragorn to be level 20th...

A point of contention. A cleric of a certain level may be able to perform most of what Jesus did, but they are not better at miracles than Jesus. Jesus could with but a thought summon an endless army of angles or end all of a creation and start a new one.

But even ignoring what Jesus could have done, let's look at what he did do.

He casted a epic spell for the price of being dead for 3 days. What spell? He made a persistent atonement field around all of existence that extended into the past and the future forever that to activate a commoner has to perform some sort of ritual (specifics are disputed).

My rough calculation of 3.5 EPIC spellcraft DCs would put that check somewhere into the 10^XX. So unless your cleric is punpun or an omnificer she would need a nigh uncountable amount of levels to ever perform that feat.

Nah pretty sure he was just forgiving people. No atonement involved, since nobody was a Paladin or Cleric. But we agree that his feats could be accomplished by a level 9 Cleric. That's a good measuring stick for him, since we never actually see him summon an army of angels (though a Cleric could do that to if they really wanted...) And as to creation, again no real evidence of that other then God claiming it. And a 9th level Cleric can claim that.


How are martials suppose to compare to full casters if God has trouble?

I think full casters may be just a tad over hyped.


No, they're just honestly that strong. Well Cú Chulainn can probably compete until they start making planes and simulacrums.

Sovereign Court

Wow as soon as somebody says "lets get back on topic" they get accused of being a Nazi. Its like the third time this week. What is going on around here?


Pan wrote:
Wow as soon as somebody says "lets get back on topic" they get accused of being a Nazi. Its like the third time this week. What is going on around here?

Dude... You failed your Sense Motive check to detect Sarcasm. The reason that guy mentioned Hitler is because the post immediately before his said no one had done that yet. It was a joke.

;)


Anzyr wrote:
Nah pretty sure he was just forgiving people. No atonement involved, since nobody was a Paladin or Cleric. But we agree that his feats could be accomplished by a level 9 Cleric. That's a good measuring stick for him, since we never actually see him summon an army of angels (though a Cleric could do that to if they really wanted...) And as to creation, again no real evidence of that other then God claiming it. And a 9th level Cleric can claim that.

I can't tell, are you just being facetious in this thread?


No. I'm seriously comparing casters to the defined acts of deities, in this case Jesus. Assuming that him forgiving people is somehow an epic level atonement is kind of whats the term... silly.


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Anzyr wrote:
No. I'm seriously comparing casters to the defined acts of deities, in this case Jesus. Assuming that him forgiving people is somehow an epic level atonement is kind of whats the term... silly.

In 4e, the cosmos is f@*#ed. Something like 80% of all souls are destined for Hell, if they can find the damned place (no pun intended).

According to Judeo-Christian mythology, which is just as real as your hypothetical level 20 wizard, one dude spontaneously fixed all of that so any soul only has to go, "Oh, hey, I'll take some of that" and now the entire afterlife works. Also, he did that after he had just been hung on the cross for hours and then stabbed, all prior to being dead for 3 days, which he fixed. He fixed being dead, on himself, while dead, then went right on to do all that other stuff. I'm sorry, but Wish won't do that. Marthkus' example was actually the right way to think about this. You need to abandon this love-affair with the ideal of the batman-wizard. It's just silly.


Hrm.. I'm just examining specifics. Really the only reason people are going to hell in the first place in Judeo-Christian Mythology is because God hasn't forgiven them. All that is a deity forgiving people he wasn't before. No atonement required. Which is why I'm sticking to specific miracles. Since again... without specifics the conversation is meaningless. And when it comes to specific miracles, Jesus has nothing on a level 20 Wizard.


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Anzyr wrote:
Hrm.. I'm just examining specifics. Really the only reason people are going to hell in the first place in Judeo-Christian Mythology is because God hasn't forgiven them. All that is a deity forgiving people he wasn't before. No atonement required. Which is why I'm sticking to specific miracles. Since again... without specifics the conversation is meaningless. And when it comes to specific miracles, Jesus has nothing on a level 20 Wizard.

I don't think that's right, but I don't know enough about scripture to argue against it decidedly. Okay, we'll ignore for the moment how this guy rearranged how the entire entry into the afterlife bit works, but how are we just moving past the 'fix yourself being dead' thing? Or how about just waltzing down to Hell and snatching up a bunch of people from the first circle because your power has made you invulnerable to the denizens of the Pit? Do we want to forget how Jesus yelled at a storm and the storm went, "Oh sorry about that sir" and calmed down instantly? Wizards can't do the first, Hell has plenty that could take on any of the wards made by the best level 20 arcanists (because archdukes, hello), and you cannot get a Control Weather spell to go off that fast without major mythic tierage.

Let's go further with this: remember, Jesus is god. It's pretty much the cornerstone of Christianity. Here's some of the things God has done, according to the Bible:

  • Exiled the losers of a heavenly war outside of existence. Technically, in J/C myth, that's what Hell is.
  • Precision targetted death magic on thousands of souls in the span of a single night.
  • Obliterated an entire city in moments with fire and brimstone.
  • Parted miles of ocean in a path a small army could waltz across, then kept it that way for at least an hour.
  • And last but not least, flooded an entire planet.

I'm leaving off creating EVERYTHING, because apparently that just breaks suspension of disbelief in a discussion about wizards tossing fireballs and wishing the cosmos were different so that *poof* it is.


VM mercenario wrote:


You want to tick off religious people? Build a ninth level cleric and show them that it can do every single one of Jesus miracles. And then some more. In a span of a couple of minutes. And all again the next day.

Jesus is easy, but Santa? Show me a Cleric who can accomplish Santa's feat of delivering toys to every good little boy and girl in the world in a single night.

-Detect good/evil on everyone on the planet
-Create enough toys to deliver to all those who are Good, undetected
-Do so in one night


Limited Wish duplicating Control Winds will in fact make a storm go "Oh... sorry about that Mr. Wizard I'll just see myself out shall I?" And no Hell is quite frankly terrified of a level 20 Wizard. Wards? What wards? I missed those in the Bible. But ya, Christian Hell versus a Wizard... I wouldn't bet on Satan for that match. Asmodeus would find his attempts to be evil adorable though I'm sure. But here let's tackle your list:

Exiling Heaven's loser is easy. If you made a plane you can in fact do this, so check one for Wizard who has used Greater Create Demiplane (Also covers creating everything).

He didn't use death magic for Egypt, he sent an Angel to do it. (Wizard can send those to no problem.)

An entire city... in moments? Please my Wizards carry enough shrunken lava flows that this would be cake with Time Stop. Hell a wizard could get the whole planet if they farmed other cities out Simulacrums.

Parting the Ocean? Meh just have all your Simulacrums help out with Wall of Force no biggie.

Now Flooding a planet... couldn't be easier... Just have your Simulacrums drop shrunken water you took from the Plane of Water. Again... simple.

You severely underestimate what a Wizard who is *really* trying is capable of. This is the sort of stuff Wizards are completely capable of but would probably a wreck a campaign, because again duplicating the acts of the Christian God is kinda passe.

OgreBattle: Wizard with enough Simulcrums can do that easy. No sweat.


Don't forget this passage

"And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."
Judges 1:19

YHWH has some kind of weakness to iron, or the iron chariots were an artifact capable of warding him away.


Ah... so the Wizard needs to Fabricate up some Iron Chariots. GG YHWH.


I really think the ideal solution is just to focus on level 6-8 play, because that's a fun part of the game where you can beat up wyverns or tame them for riding and a Beholder is a great end-boss.

At level 6 the Fighter|Rogue gestalt, Inquisitors, Alchemists, Magus's, Rangers, Wizards, Clerics, and more can play together nicely.

I don't need an exp treadmill to feel any more accomplishment above E6-8 because above that is casters with level 4 spells and a shrinking number of monsters to fight against. Even D&D and Pathfinder's designers admit to not playing the high level game very much.


Well, I can see this argument is pointless. Apparently, you're arguing for the existence of bottomless wealth for this batman wizard in the form of "X number of scrolls of Y at caster level Z, which is just what I need" or "Hey, turns out I have all these simulacrums I never told anyone about". It's the reason no one takes that argument seriously. I mean really, how many of these simulacrums are there, precisely? At least thousands of them, you need that many to flood something as BIG as a planet's surface. Earth has about 196 million square miles of surface area to it, with a maximum height above sea level of about 5.5 miles at Everest. To make computation simple, we're just going to toss out the fact that this is a spheroid and not a flat plane, which means you're looking at an estimated 1.078 billion cubic miles of water necessary to completely flood the Earth. Using Shrink Item, you can divide that by 4096 to get 265869 cubic miles of water you have to drag back from that other planes. Just for reference, a kilogram is 2.2 pounds and one gram is a cubic centimeter of water. After some math I won't bore you with, that comes out to each one of those cubic miles weighing approximately 4,168,151,000 tons.
So, tell me, where is the endless money pit to afford all those super-strong simulacrums coming from, precisely? Because whatever trick you're using to get your GM to allow such a thing, I need to try it.


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You do know Blood Money is a spell right? Making Simulacrums with it is free and easy (though to be 100% RAW tight you need to use Wish duplicating Simulacrum to make them). It is what any serious Wizard would do if he was trying to use his full magical might. Hate to break it to you but yes Wizards are really so OP they get free Simulacrums did you I think I would suggest something that wasn't true?


I started another thread about this a week ago.
Can a lvl20 Wizard replicate the feats of the Judo-Christian god YHWH?
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qmou?Can-a-lvl20-Wizard-replicate-the-feats-of -the

One of the points is that YHWH created a world of his own, so his power over that world is also based on the fact that, well, it IS a world of his creation and he had Batman-esque prep time for everything.

Scarab Sages

And when you run out of spells there Anzyr What then? When the omnipotent part shows up and the being of unlimited power decides to flex it. Why are you so hopped on on your Similacrum when they can only cast level 5 spells? Perhaps simulacrums are not as scary as you think?
Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level. You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Perception check (opposed by the caster's Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check.

At all times, the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner. A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities. If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness. A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum.
so if you are using your wizard as base at best they are level 10. I think your misusing wish too, though i dont feel the need to even argue that. And guess what Im not even religious. IMO your just being foolish and fan-boying on your beloved wizard a bit too much.


Detect Magic wrote:

Not this:

** spoiler omitted **

If I wanted to play the Hulk, I'd play another game. I'm sure there's some sort of comic book superhero tabletop RPG out there somewhere...

I hadn't read all the Mythic abilities in detail so far so I see this for the first time.

And it makes me happy. I actually really love this ability already.


Marthkus wrote:
Starbuck_II wrote:
the bible never says Jesus is god
You need to pick up an NIV study bible. No serious scholar disputes that the bible claims that Jesus is God.

Please, and these scholars are jokes then.

They should debate it.


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Starbuck_II wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Starbuck_II wrote:
the bible never says Jesus is god
You need to pick up an NIV study bible. No serious scholar disputes that the bible claims that Jesus is God.

Please, and these scholars are jokes then.

They should debate it.

No they shouldn't. You have to ignore several book in both the OT and NT to say that the bible didn't call Jesus God.


Anzyr wrote:
You do know Blood Money is a spell right? Making Simulacrums with it is free and easy (though to be 100% RAW tight you need to use Wish duplicating Simulacrum to make them). It is what any serious Wizard would do if he was trying to use his full magical might. Hate to break it to you but yes Wizards are really so OP they get free Simulacrums did you I think I would suggest something that wasn't true?

Simulacrum has a 12 hour casting time. Blood Money won't work for that, nor would it let you create infinite, free scrolls for thesame reason. The whole "free Wishes via Blood Money" thing won't work either, because that's 35000 gp and your wizard cannot chain cast that at the cost of 70 points of Strength. You misread the area of Control Winds earlier, too. Yes, I own the RotRLAE book, Blood Money is one of several very neat things in the appendicies, but it is not the key to a wizard achieving the power level of an actual god.


dot


So, martial characters should have nice things. Given that Ogre created an actual thread for the god thing, how about both of you discuss it there? I mean, it literally has its own thread for that exact specific topic now.


Apologies, I'll consider moving over to there for that particular discussion.

So, yeah, nice things for non-casters. I'd like to see the Rogue talents improved a bit, they're mostly pretty 'meh'. Also, Rogue seem to need mostly good stats in all mental attributes if they want decent Perception, for their social skills to not suck, and to be able to take Combat Expertise->Improved Feint.


Cerberus Seven wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
You do know Blood Money is a spell right? Making Simulacrums with it is free and easy (though to be 100% RAW tight you need to use Wish duplicating Simulacrum to make them). It is what any serious Wizard would do if he was trying to use his full magical might. Hate to break it to you but yes Wizards are really so OP they get free Simulacrums did you I think I would suggest something that wasn't true?
Simulacrum has a 12 hour casting time. Blood Money won't work for that, nor would it let you create infinite, free scrolls for thesame reason. The whole "free Wishes via Blood Money" thing won't work either, because that's 35000 gp and your wizard cannot chain cast that at the cost of 70 points of Strength. You misread the area of Control Winds earlier, too. Yes, I own the RotRLAE book, Blood Money is one of several very neat things in the appendicies, but it is not the key to a wizard achieving the power level of an actual god.

It's 25,000 GP and Yes my Wizards can chain cast it thanks to the fact that there are Summoned Monsters/Simulacrums that get Heal as a SLA and there are summons that can cast it. To get the 25,000 GP required to cast a free Wish you need 51 STR, since it will cost you 50 STR and you don't want to pass out. Wish itself will cover 10,000 GP of Simulacrum which is all you need. Believe me I know this trick inside out, upside down and have a list of STR buffs for when I don't want to just Marionette Possession/Magic Jar something. It works. And I'd say being able to create an army of loyal minions is pretty vital.

I did not misread the area of control winds, you are assuming the storm was much bigger. Even if it were bigger then that, Wish can duplicate Control Weather to achieve the same effect.

@ TheNine: You realize you can make Simulacrums of other things... like Solars and Balors right? And that such creature keep their SLAs? And when would I run out of spells? Even if I did an infinitely expanding army of Simulacrums of every stripe has massive versatility and campaign wrecking power. Please tell me how access to cost free minions is not a powerful effect. We aren't just talking about 1 or 2 copies that can cast 5th level spells we're talking an ever expanding number of simulacrums. Also as we covered above, YHWH's kryptonite is iron chariot which the Wizard can make with Fabricate so...


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The thing is, Anzyr, wizards are Tier 1 even in the absence of stoopidly broken splatbook spells like blood money. Hinging arguments on that spell just leads the ignorant masses to think that the game is perfectly balanced in all other respects, when in fact it's anything but.

Likewise, simulacrum is so geared towards abuse that it derves to be its own topic, not part of the caster-vs.-martials one.

And, pretty please, take the Yahweh stuff into that thread. Cluttering up the "what should martials have" thread with it just encourages people to not take anything in this one seriously.


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Oh I planned on it. That was mostly addressing the fact that Blood Money + Wish absolutely works. (Because I really wish people would bother to read, so every time I bring it up I don't have to correct the other person, because I mean.. that gets old fast.)

And yes Wizards are tier 1 even in the absence of stupidly broken spells like Blood Money. The larger thrust of the point is that when you get down to what their capable of Wizards give deities a run for their money (not intended) at higher levels, while martials maintain a level 1-6 paradigm and just plain don't. Which is very much consistent with the overall topic of the thread: "What should martial characters be able to do?"

They should be as much a threat to the status of deities at level 20 as a Wizard is. If people do not wish to take that point seriously Kirth, I find it to be an error on their part and one they would likely commit anyway, given the lack of seriousness with which many treat the gap. I mean what does it say that we have to exclude actual abilities the Wizard has to have even a basic discussion? Nothing favorable about martial classes that's for sure. But they will have some excuse why this is not at all demonstrative of any gap.


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That, actually ties into the 'tiers of play' as I see them Anzyr. It tends to go something like this:

1-4 gritty (See Lord of the Rings etc)
5-8 heroic (See Beowulf/Achilles)
9-12 Super Human
13-16 Functional Demigods
17-20 Functional Deities


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Anzyr wrote:
If people do not wish to take that point seriously Kirth, I find it to be an error on their part and one they would likely commit anyway, given the lack of seriousness with which many treat the gap.

Yeah, and it may just be hopeless, given the headdesk-worthy "responses" that get trotted out over and over, regardless of how often we rebut them, whack-a-mole style.

Overall, I'm reaching the conclusion that substantive rules discussion on these boards is completely and utterly pointless, given the ostrich-like approach the vast majority of people take to imbalances.

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