Has anyone made a not-bad sex rulebook?

[Libertad]

The vast majority of ones I've read tend to be either really creepy or just plain bad rules. Even the Book of Erotic Fantasy, which is hailed as being the most tasteful of the lot, has really wonky game mechanics and is far too "gamey" for the kinds of games meant to be played with it (erotic role-play).

Attempts to handle sex in a mature manner are often undermined because the focus of the sourcebook is geared around sex, which shifts the message from "sex is a perfectly normal thing" to "hey look, we're going to talk about sexy stuff!"

It is indeed an important aspect in the real world, but the types of games the sourcebooks are designed for often focus on action and combat over romance and relationships.

There's also the fact that the majority of tabletop games are a group activity, often with people who you have a platonic relationship with. Role-playing with a significant other is one thing, doing the same with your football night drinking buddies is another thing. As such the medium is not entirely appropriate to a majority of gaming sessions, limiting their appeal and usefulness.

Can it theoretically be done well, or is it just not something geared towards tabletop gaming?

Thoughts?

[Jaelithe]

You have to have a remarkably mature and level-headed group to handle the subject matter in a fashion that's simultaneously arousing, tasteful and not in the least intimidating. It's beyond the capabilities of most DMs, and most writers of gaming material, as well.

Generally speaking, I've only ever allowed the game to take a turn into the erotically-charged while DMing for a significant other, and only when we're alone. To do so for someone to whom you're attracted when no intentions have been stated could easily scare him or her into never gaming with you again, and going that far in mixed company often makes those who consider sexuality something intimate and special tremendously uncomfortable.

I think The Book of Erotic Fantasy handles it passably well, though on a personal note I find their take on what a paladin would and wouldn't do laughably permissive.

I don't really think a book is necessary, though. Mechanics aren't really required; it's a facet of role-play.

(Edit: [Sighs.] You must have edited your post while I was responding. Now my reply sounds redundant. Don't do that! :) )

[DM Under The Bridge]

I allow it, there are some jokes and guffaws, it doesn't have to be serious.

Mechanics are not required. If you want it to come down to some sort of check (profession: oldest) go with it if it fits the situation.

[Bunnyboy]

In my world sex exist and characters are aware of it. Flirting is roleplayed, but what happens in the bedroom is left out. If there is any need to know what kind of impression character leaves, the player can throw a skill or ability he wants to use and I set the DC based on their drunkedness and imagination.

I do put some items with 'artistic value' in the loot and stores once and then. In one campaign the female rogue tiefling had wibrating wand of grease, which was her most loved treasure. And the sorcerer found an illustrated book made by gnomes, who were neighbours of his female cousin.

[Riuken]

The only mechanics I use are fort saves versus any STDs (standard disease rules), and fort saves versus pregnancy (25% chance and the save passing to have it happen). This is only if it has been stated that it is unprotected (I assume condoms), otherwise I gloss over the whole thing ("Sex happens, now what are you doing?"). The faster you can "fade to black" through it the better, in my experience.

[LazarX]

Here's the real question.

Why do you need a rulebook for sex? The purpose of the rules for the main part, is to adjudicate combat. Whether it's that of the physical kind (Hit Vs AC), or social interaction. (Bluff vs. Sense Motive)

Everything else is roleplay and story.

[DM Beckett]

White Wold did one for the VtR/nWoD line that is really good. Less sex and more about intimate relationships, attatchments, and various forms of love. Its called Strange Dead Love, and while Vampire focused, might help.

[Draco Bahamut]

Yeah, sex is a fact of life, but is a lot more fun doing than gaming about it. But what i miss more about sex in RPG is all the things people do just to get sex. The world feels bland without the escapades of the duke and the duchess hiring the adventurers to follow her husband. Or flirting at the tavern, or the passions of evil (necrophillia and worst subjects), or how Rumiko Takahashi put "Pepople do really crazy things when they are in love." You don't even need to have sex scenes for sex, love and passion have a huge impact in the world.

[Aranna]

~imagines a boy and girl sitting down together and opening up a rulebook~

"what are we supposed to do next?"

:)

[Draco Bahamut]

Aranna wrote:

~imagines a boy and girl sitting down together and opening up a rulebook~

"what are we supposed to do next?"

:)

This is not what the Kama Sutra is about ?

[Alzrius]

I think that Sisters of Rapture did fairly well.

In my opinion, it's biggest success was by focusing on a particular organization in the game world that was itself highly focused on sex.

(Disclaimer: I was involved with the PFRPG version's production.)

[Aranna]

Draco Bahamut wrote:

Aranna wrote:

~imagines a boy and girl sitting down together and opening up a rulebook~

"what are we supposed to do next?"

:)

This is not what the Kama Sutra is about ?

I think I figured it out without needing that rule book.

:p

[Jaelithe]

Aranna wrote:

Draco Bahamut wrote:

Aranna wrote:

~imagines a boy and girl sitting down together and opening up a rulebook~

"what are we supposed to do next?"

:)

This is not what the Kama Sutra is about ?

I think I figured it out without needing that rule book.

:p

Don't stick out your tongue unless you're prepared to use it.

[DM Under The Bridge]

*Closes helm*

[Avatar-1]

Echoing some of the comments above, are you after spells in particular?

[Jaelithe]

DM Under The Bridge wrote:

*Closes helm*

Yeah, that was probably a little out of line. I was going for the laugh and got too vulgar. My apologies to one and all.

[Mythic Evil Lincoln]

Mechanics for a beautiful sunset?

Rules for breathtaking architecture?

There are some things that simply don't need to be gamed.

House rules are your best bet for this kind of thing. But considering how little consensus there is about the topic, a viable commercial sourcebook is probably not forthcoming.

[Hama]

You can try a 2nd edition book called A book of unlawful carnal knowledge. It is pretty well written. I think there is a conversion to 3E somewhere on teh interwebz.

[Fig]

I think I might be in Mythic Evil Lincoln's camp: While there might be some ramifications you need to sort through with the/your players, this is one that could be done without the need for proper "rules." The only thing I might add is a joke roll about all parties enjoying themselves.

Frankly, unless the players are that close and can deal with a scenario that intimate, then the rules should largely matter less than the story all parties involved weave together.

[Tormsskull]

I guess I am more or less confused at what kind of content you want in such a rule book?

If you're just looking for evocative language or ways to add eroticism to a TTRPG (and have a group that's willing to embrace that) then there's a ton of info online if you look for it (and sometimes even when you don't.)

If you're looking for codified rules to handle sex, pregnancy, etc., then I say just make up your own. Though I can't imagine such a scenario turning into anything other than a comedy.

[strayshift]

I tend to find adding little personal affectations to npcs (e.g. blowing a stray hair from their face, blushing when they look at someone, etc) tends to work well enough for the pcs to start an interest if they are going to. Also echo the roleplaying comments from earlier posters.

[Ellis Mirari]

Seems perfectly reasonable for a group that otherwise engages in orgies or other things with each other. I can't imagine people being very comfortable with it unless they did other quasi-sexual things with each other, though.

[Umbriere Moonwhisper]

you don't need rolls for sex and pregnancy

if the player wants an illegitimate heir on every port, let it happen, if they don't want kids because they can't produce children due to a disorder, let that apply too.

[Hama]

Ellis Mirari wrote:

Seems perfectly reasonable for a group that otherwise engages in orgies or other things with each other. I can't imagine people being very comfortable with it unless they did other quasi-sexual things with each other, though.

What.

[Ellis Mirari]

Hama wrote:

Ellis Mirari wrote:

Seems perfectly reasonable for a group that otherwise engages in orgies or other things with each other. I can't imagine people being very comfortable with it unless they did other quasi-sexual things with each other, though.

What.

The only reason I can imagine for having a "sex rulebook" is for acting out sexual fantasies in game, which naturally everyone needs to be on the same page about, and it's undoubtedly going to... visibly register, which would be awkward for any group that isn't physically intimate.

EDIT: This is possibly the weirdest comment I've ever made online. I'm not sure how I got here.

[DM Under The Bridge]

Well two can be into it, or one is into it with a npc and the rest of the party can do their thing.

I know I considerably enriched two games by having two chars pursue romance options. It really fit and no one got weirded out too heavily. Then again, it wasn't about the sex acts. One lady-gamer considered an action I declared incredibly romantic at one stage, the kiss and going further before the final dangerous battle, swoon swoon. Which made me chuckle.

[Hama]

Ellis Mirari wrote:

Hama wrote:

Ellis Mirari wrote:

Seems perfectly reasonable for a group that otherwise engages in orgies or other things with each other. I can't imagine people being very comfortable with it unless they did other quasi-sexual things with each other, though.

What.

The only reason I can imagine for having a "sex rulebook" is for acting out sexual fantasies in game, which naturally everyone needs to be on the same page about, and it's undoubtedly going to... visibly register, which would be awkward for any group that isn't physically intimate.

EDIT: This is possibly the weirdest comment I've ever made online. I'm not sure how I got here.

I couldn't disagree more. There is a plethora of reasons to have a good sex rulebook, and acting out fantasies is a tiny part of it.

[Shifty]

No matter how hard you wish it, having a rulebook for sex will not end in the table LARP'ing it out. That's a different sort of party for a different sort of party.

[Sissyl]

Thing is... As stated, sex can be a serious driving force without ever getting into the horizontal tango. Rules for sex that were useful would be things applying to other areas of romance, while also possibly having a use between the bedsheets. Also, sex can be many things. A staple of bedroom comedies since forever is hiding under someone's bed and discovering that when the person in question returns home, they have company for bed. Also, seductions, secrets, shared passion, jealousy, hatred, desire for children, and so on are all things that are coloured by the attitude to sex. It could be done, but few enough people are good enough writers and designers to handle it in RPGs.

[Aubrey the Malformed]

The game is about killing things and taking their stuff. You don't need to snog them first.

Some groups might handle this well, I suspect most don't and steer clear. My guys (and me) all regress to being thirteen-years-old when we play RPGs, as it's more or less how old we were when we started playing, and I doubt we are alone. So you can imagine how this subject might be handled at the table.

[sexual content]"It's a girl!" <snigger>[/sexual content]

Rules for this stuff just seems creepy.

[Tormsskull]

DM Under The Bridge wrote:

Well two can be into it, or one is into it with a npc and the rest of the party can do their thing.

I think I'm a great role player, as both a player and a DM. I really get into my characters, know why they do things, and bring their personalities to life.

That said, there's no way I could RP a female NPC that another player is trying to be "into it" with. That just crosses into ultra-weird territory in my mind.

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:

The game is about killing things and taking their stuff.

I really dislike this description of a table top game. If that's how you play the game, you're missing out on so much.

[DM Under The Bridge]

Roleplaying isn't about being yourself. If you can be one side in a relationship, why not another? If a man, not why a woman?

Thinking about this is just being reflexive, and considering the other side. It sure weirds some people out though.

[Jaelithe]

Role-playing games, even more than being not about yourself, are primarily about enjoyment. While there's nothing inherently wrong with it—actors, for example, do it all the time—many if not most people don't find it enjoyable to have their character engage in flirtation or romance, let alone described sexual activity, with a character run by a player who's not of a gender they themselves find attractive. Some may, indeed, enjoy the experience(s) as a role-playing challenge and/or an expansion of horizons, and more power to them. Others will find it vaguely disquieting, or worse, and seek to avoid it. Neither is more mature or progressive. It's not real life, after all.

The consensus that you can't force the issue is the correct one.

[Freehold DM]

I like my house rules for sex.

[Hama]

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:

The game is about killing things and taking their stuff. You don't need to snog them first.

Some groups might handle this well, I suspect most don't and steer clear. My guys (and me) all regress to being thirteen-years-old when we play RPGs, as it's more or less how old we were when we started playing, and I doubt we are alone. So you can imagine how this subject might be handled at the table.

[sexual content]"It's a girl!" <snigger>[/sexual content]

Rules for this stuff just seems creepy.

Maybe for you. My group is much more mature then that. We had a campaign where there was no combat for four sessions. Just pure roleplay.

To be honest, if a person over the age of 20 started giggling like an idiot over mention of sex in game, I'd be liable to kick them out of the group.

[Aubrey the Malformed]

Tormsskull wrote:

Aubrey the Malformed wrote:

The game is about killing things and taking their stuff.

I really dislike this description of a table top game. If that's how you play the game, you're missing out on so much.

I was being mildly ironic. But it's also horses for courses. Many, many people do not play the game primarily for roleplaying, but for the tactical element. I'm probably in that camp. And that's fine - at least one guy at my table is really not at all a good roleplayer, but he's also a very dedicated player and if he's happy, fine. I don't see the role of the DM to stretch him or get him to play in a way he doesn't really want to. Obviously you play things a bit differently, and that's also fine.

In the end, I personally would find anyone trying to do something sexual in their head with my character to be pretty weird in a table-top game. That's pretty "Ew!" on many levels for me. I'd have to question their motives as a player and a person, not just as a character. For me, the game is about sitting round a table with a bunch of friends, drinking too much Diet Coke and having a big laugh. It's not an acting class.

Things might be a bit different in a PbP as it's more novelistic and personally remote (there isn't some overweight forty-something guy with a weekend beard coming on to me, at least that I can see) but even then I would have to handle it very, very carefully (and certainly non-explicitly). I think I've alluded to sex maybe a couple of times in a PbP I've DM'ed, but certainly with no descriptions of sexual acts or any icky stuff. Clearly "sex" in it's broadest sense (as per Sissyl's post above) is a big motivator in real life. But it takes good roleplaying to really pull that off in a table-top and a lot of people can't and won't do that.

[Draco Bahamut]

And about Tantric Magic ? Anyone remember Fortunato from the Wild Cards universe ?

[Haladir]

Someone gave me a copy of the Book of Erotic Fantasy for OGL 3.5 rules as a joke gift a few years ago. Aside from the art of questionable quality (manipulated photographs), it's probably the best rulebook for sex I've seen. Its tone was mature, matter-of-fact, never silly, and was not particularly titilating... despite the lousy soft-core porn of the artwork.

That said, I had some major problems with some aspects of the book, and never actually used any of the rules in any of my games. The book's biggest sin IMO was an attempted re-introduction of the Comeliness stat from the 1st edition Unearthed Arcana.

Honestly-- this soft of thing is probably best handled by the storyline and role-playing rather than mechanics.

[Hitdice]

I don't mind mechanics for social interaction (and there are quite a few 3PP with more robust mechanics than simple Bluff/Diplomacy/Sense Motive rolls) but I don't really see why sex needs a set of rules beyond those. Rolling for blow by blow descriptions of sexual performance has ick-factor red flags all over it.

[Tormsskull]

Hitdice wrote:

Rolling for blow by blow descriptions of sexual performance has ick-factor red flags all over it.

Yeah, if you thought someone optimizing for combat was bad...

[DM Under The Bridge]

Also funny, you play in a game in which there is that side to the game, but your character has such a low charisma (or botches the checks) and they get zip. Very amusing (if you can laugh about that stuff). I actually had a high charisma character that was wonderful with diplomacy, but her bluff/seduction was mediocre. She tried to seduce a great and mighty hero, buuuut, he wasn't interested, left and went adventuring. The fury of a woman scorned. Rped seething and anxiety for a game, lol. This from a character that had been a social master up until then.

[Kthulhu]

Tormsskull wrote:

Hitdice wrote:

Rolling for blow by blow descriptions of sexual performance has ick-factor red flags all over it.

Yeah, if you thought someone optimizing for combat was bad...

My half-ogre character using point buy dropped all the traditional stats to 7, but he does wield a pretty massive greatclub, if you know what I mean!

:P

[DM Under The Bridge]

Large and in charge.

[Josh M.]

Libertad wrote:

The vast majority of ones I've read tend to be either really creepy or just plain bad rules. Even the Book of Erotic Fantasy, which is hailed as being the most tasteful of the lot, has really wonky game mechanics and is far too "gamey" for the kinds of games meant to be played with it (erotic role-play).

Attempts to handle sex in a mature manner are often undermined because the focus of the sourcebook is geared around sex, which shifts the message from "sex is a perfectly normal thing" to "hey look, we're going to talk about sexy stuff!"

It is indeed an important aspect in the real world, but the types of games the sourcebooks are designed for often focus on action and combat over romance and relationships.

There's also the fact that the majority of tabletop games are a group activity, often with people who you have a platonic relationship with. Role-playing with a significant other is one thing, doing the same with your football night drinking buddies is another thing. As such the medium is not entirely appropriate to a majority of gaming sessions, limiting their appeal and usefulness.

Can it theoretically be done well, or is it just not something geared towards tabletop gaming?

Thoughts?

The BOEF is indeed a bit "gamey," but for what it's offering, it sort of needs to be. The sections of the book that detail specific race relationships were really helpful for my world-building. I've read several of the "mature" game books, and I easily find the BOEF to be one of the best one of the bunch. But, even then, that's not saying a whole lot.

"Mature topics" don't all translate that well to a game table. A lot of people have a lot of hang-ups regarding things like sexuality, reproduction, etc. It's all a very dicey bunch of things that don't happen "on-screen" in most games in the first place. It's the kind of things that has to be brought up to a group up front, as to avoid any potentially sensitive boundaries.

I think it's one of those things that, there just isn't a huge demand for, and takes a very careful approach to create. So in the meantime, I don't think we're going to get very much more "mature" rulesets with more tact any time soon. Not until there is more of a demand.

[Josh M.]

Draco Bahamut wrote:

Yeah, sex is a fact of life, but is a lot more fun doing than gaming about it. But what i miss more about sex in RPG is all the things people do just to get sex. The world feels bland without the escapades of the duke and the duchess hiring the adventurers to follow her husband. Or flirting at the tavern, or the passions of evil (necrophillia and worst subjects), or how Rumiko Takahashi put "Pepople do really crazy things when they are in love." You don't even need to have sex scenes for sex, love and passion have a huge impact in the world.

100% agreed. You don't have to "show" actual sex in the game, but the other aspects of it(as detailed above) are integral. Nations rise and fall over it.

[DM Under The Bridge]

Hmmm, Helen of Troy game?

Adventuring, good times, set up a really sweet romance.

And the mid game is a gigantic war centred around relationships.

Don't think the adventure paths have delved into this territory yet.

[Loren Pechtel]

Like others I think the BOEF is the best of what I've seen, not that they got it right. There's a lot of good stuff in there but some big mistakes also. (Consider: Imagist + 20th level caster + Maximized Beauty's Caress.)

I don't really think you need a rulebook for erotic roleplay and otherwise sex should normally be a fade-to-black--otherwise you're focusing too much on one player.

That being said I do think there's room for more sex-related stuff even when the act is off stage. Among other things I don't recall ever seeing a decent system for seduction. (The target's attitudes towards sex make a *BIG* difference. It's going to be a lot easier to seduce the town slut than the virgin-until-marriage.)

[DM Under The Bridge]

We just run it off bluff, making bluff/seduction. Some dcs get pretty high.

[MagusJanus]

This can theoretically be done, but it requires a group very comfortable with each other and this sort of thing.

Also... what kind of rules are you looking for?

[Haladir]

Of course, it would be extremely difficult to write a worse book on the topic than the execrable "game" F.A.T.A.L.

(I mentioned F.A.T.A.L.! I lose!)