Alchemist Explosive Bomb question

[Essemecks]

Alright, here goes:

"The alchemist’s bombs now have a splash radius of 10 feet rather than 5 feet (see Throw Splash Weapon). Creatures that take a direct hit from an explosive bomb catch fire, taking 1d6 points of fire damage each round until the fire is extinguished. Extinguishing the flames is a full-round action that requires a Reflex save. Rolling on the ground provides the target with a +2 to the save. Dousing the target with at least 2 gallons of water automatically extinguishes the flames."

The Explosive Bomb says that the target "catches fire", but supercedes the Environmental Hazard rules for catching on fire in every way.

For reference, the Environmental rules:
"Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character's clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out—that is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he's no longer on fire.

A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.

Those whose clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character."

As you can see, the Explosive Bomb supercedes the initial save (no save mentioned if you take a direct hit from the Explosive Bomb), the action required to extinguish the flames (Explosive Bomb requires a full-round action to even attempt to extinguish the flames, mundane fire gives you a reflex save at the start of the turn), and the benefit from rolling on the ground (Explosive Bomb gives you +2 to your reflex save, mundane fire gives you ANOTHER SAVE at a +4 bonus).

It is clear from this that "catching fire" from an Explosive Bomb is not covered at all by the rules from the Environmental "catching on fire" section. With that in mind... when does the Explosive Bomb do this fire damage? The only thing Explosive Bomb says on the matter is that it happens "once per round". It's important to know whether it's at the start of the turn, the end of their turn, or on MY turn (since that would be one round from when they caught fire). In the last case, do they take damage immediately (since "each round" implies the round that they caught fire without text to the contrary). Finally, if this truly is a completely separate circumstance than catching on fire from a mundane source, the reflex save to douse Explosive Bomb fire is against MY spell save DC, right?

[Zwordsman]

It'll be agianst your bomb's DC which I think is 10+1/2 alch lv +int?

also it should burn at the very start of their turn, similar to how poison would go off on their turn. Not yours or beginning of the whole rotation or anything.

[cultofmice]

Essemecks wrote:

As you can see, the Explosive Bomb supercedes the initial save (no save mentioned if you take a direct hit from the Explosive Bomb)

I haven't found anything on this and it still isn't clear to me. My GM brought this up last night by saying the victims can make a DC 15 reflex save to avoid catching fire on a direct hit (as by the rules for catching fire). I read it as no initial save. What's right?

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

No initial save. Bombs commonly have effects that on a direct hit have no save. The specific rules of this bomb supercede the general rules of catching on fire.

[Zwordsman]

cultofmice wrote:

Essemecks wrote:

As you can see, the Explosive Bomb supercedes the initial save (no save mentioned if you take a direct hit from the Explosive Bomb)

I haven't found anything on this and it still isn't clear to me. My GM brought this up last night by saying the victims can make a DC 15 reflex save to avoid catching fire on a direct hit (as by the rules for catching fire). I read it as no initial save. What's right?

The discovery says they catch fire on a direct hit. There is no save etc for this, It's the Discovery's effect, increased aoe and the main target catches fire.

This doesn't say "catches fire as per environmental rules" it states simply, " Creatures that take a direct hit from an explosive bomb catch fire, taking 1d6 points of fire damage each round until the fire is extinguished. " There is no reflex for the fire. You hit with the bomb, they burn.

As for the reflex save full round action. " Extinguishing the flames is a full-round action that requires a Reflex save." It should use your discovery DC as it's an effect from your SU special ability. (10+1/2 alch lv +int i believe). It does not specify as other abilities do, that it uses the enviromental rules for putting out fire (which is the 15DC to put out).

So to sum up~
No check to avoid fire. Bomb hits the main target is burning.
Full round and DC of the discovery to extinguish. (so it eats a turn and can potentially be pretty darn hard)
I actually feel like this is more useful than I originally thought now. It's not a bad effect.
I wonder, if you can keep hitting with that to stack burning types. I'm pretty sure not though.

[cultofmice]

thanks for making this clear.

[PaulH]

What about non-fire explosive bombs?

Thinking specifically about Force Bombs, but could easily be Acid, Cold etc.

Thanks
Paul H

[PaulH]

And lastly, (as my beard grows even longer)...

Can you use Acid Flask to do acid damage to the Grease effect Bombs, as they are counted as using the Grease Spell? And would the bomb radius stay the same?

(Acid Flasks can be used as a component for Grease Spells to do 1 point damage per round in target area).

Thanks
Paul H

[Elbedor]

PaulH wrote:

What about non-fire explosive bombs?

Thinking specifically about Force Bombs, but could easily be Acid, Cold etc.

Thanks
Paul H

Last I knew you can't mix Explosive Bomb with another discovery like Acid Bomb or Force Bomb. Maybe there are other ways to get non-fire Explosive Bombs, but I'm not sure. As the discovery talks specifically about catching fire, I would have to say that the target can't catch fire if fire isn't involved.