I've seen a lot of messages regarding this feat, but I haven't found an answer to my questions.
I've got a new player who wants to take Vicious Stomp along with Improved Trip. The way he is reading it is that he can trip his opponent, and when he falls, take an attack of opportunity against him.
My understand has always been that if you are forced to do something that normally provokes attacks of opportunity, you don't. For instance, when you bull rush someone, if you bull rush them through threatened squares, he does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
The same is true for the Drag and Reposition combat manoeuvres from the Advanced Players Guide.
And, even if it did somehow provoke (such as with the Greater Trip feat), can a character take an attack of opportunity off of something he instigated?
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Taffer
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5ldw0?The-FAQ-That-Time-Forgot
The Greater Trip feat allows you to take an attack of opportunity against a foe that you trip. The Vicious Stomp feat allows you to take an attack of opportunity against a foe that falls prone adjacent to you. If you have both these feats and trip a foe, do you get to make two attacks of opportunity (assuming that you can)?
Yes, the two triggering acts are similar here but they are different. One occurs when you trip a foe. The other occurs when a foe falls prone. It requires a large number of feats to accomplish, but you can really pile on the attacks with this combination.
In other words: yes, Vicious Stomp works when someone falls due to tripping, yes, Greater Trip lets you make an attack of opportunity against someone when you trip them, and yes, if you have both you get to make two attacks of opportunity.
I'm not sure who you'd expect Vicious Stomp to not work when someone is knocked prone involuntarily. How often do people decide to drop prone of their own accord while an enemy is already standing next to them?
Greater Trip isn't the issue...that is spelled out quite clearly.
My issues are:
1) Allowing attacks of opportunity for involuntary actions, which have always seemed to be disallowed, and
2) A player "forcing" himself to be able to take an attack of opportunity, which seems a bit much to me.
I agree, someone simply dropping prone of their own volition next to an enemy doesn't make sense, but I come from a 3.5 background...near the end there, they were coming out with a LOT of feats that could only be used under VERY specific conditions. Perhaps that's coloured my expectations a bit. :(
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Taffer
The faq entry posted by Roberta clearly states that if a character is tripped even against his will that vicious stop provides an attack of opportunity. Then later in life if he gets combat reflexes and greater trip not only will he get the one attack of opportunity but he will get a second.
However, it appears that this is your game and your player came to you with a question. He wants to use this combo which according to the rules as written and the rules as intended is 100% legit. As the GM this is your world and it can work in any way you choose for it to work. My suggestion would be to advise him that if he focuses on tripping he will be very strong in the beginning but this tactic becomes obsolete very quickly when you start facing lager foes.
Also,would they not require Combat Reflexes in order to take more than one attack of opportunity in a round?
Also,would they not require Combat Reflexes in order to take more than one attack of opportunity in a round?
Yes or one of the other ways to get more than one AoO.
Vicious Stomp has Combat Reflexes as a prereq.
Vicious Stomp has Combat Reflexes as a prereq.
Thank you Roberta. Problem solved. Considering how feat intensive it is, it's a pretty good strategy. This isn't some mook pulling off double AoO's every round, it's someone highly trained making great moves on the battlefield, and should definitely be encouraged.
Are characters not limited to one AoO per opponent per round in Pathfinder? The wording of the FAQ question that Roberta linked and the ensuing discussion seem to imply that one could have two AoO's against the same opponent if they had both Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp. Did AoO's change that significantly from 3.5 to PF or have I misunderstood the discussion?
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Are characters not limited to one AoO per opponent per round in Pathfinder? The wording of the FAQ question that Roberta linked and the ensuing discussion seem to imply that one could have two AoO's against the same opponent if they had both Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp. Did AoO's change that significantly from 3.5 to PF or have I misunderstood the discussion?
Yes you are limited to 1 AoO per round unless you have special training (a feat that grants extra AoO's).
Combat Reflexes allows a character to make additional AoO's. As does 'Elven Battle Training' (I think that's the feat).Since Vicious Stomp has Combat Reflexes as. Pre-req, it's all good.
Are characters not limited to one AoO per opponent per round in Pathfinder? The wording of the FAQ question that Roberta linked and the ensuing discussion seem to imply that one could have two AoO's against the same opponent if they had both Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp. Did AoO's change that significantly from 3.5 to PF or have I misunderstood the discussion?
The limit you're probably thinking of is that even with Combat Reflexes you can only make an AoO against the same opponent once per round for moving out of a threatened square:
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity
If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
This does not apply to Vicious Stomp and Greater Trip, only to moving out of threatened squares.
Hmm, upon investigation, it seems the "per opponent" limitation was indeed removed. In 3.5 you could only ever have one AoO against a particular opponent per round regardless of how many different ways the AoO's were provoked or if you had Combat Reflexes. Good to know. Thanks!
yeah you can really push the AoOs especially with a trip build, im playing a character who has greater trip and felling smash with a fortuitous weapon enhancement, I also have vicious stomp which results in:
Power attack -> free trip (felling smash) -> AoO (greater trip) -> second AoO (fortuitous) -> vicious stomp
So for 1 attack in my full round I get 4 attacks and a control effect (prone) and I still have 2 other attacks that are now a +4 to hit since he is on the ground. Suffice it to say my GM hates me and now every second monster either flies or is untrippable (is that even a word?...whatever)
yeah you can really push the AoOs especially with a trip build, im playing a character who has greater trip and felling smash with a fortuitous weapon enhancement, I also have vicious stomp which results in:
Power attack -> free trip (felling smash) -> AoO (greater trip) -> second AoO (fortuitous) -> vicious stompSo for 1 attack in my full round I get 4 attacks and a control effect (prone) and I still have 2 other attacks that are now a +4 to hit since he is on the ground. Suffice it to say my GM hates me and now every second monster either flies or is untrippable (is that even a word?...whatever)
Make your DM happy and let him know you don't have 2 attacks left after that little routine. Felling smash doesn't work as part of a full attack.You have to use the attack action which is a standard action.
Make your DM happy and let him know you don't have 2 attacks left after that little routine. Felling smash doesn't work as part of a full attack.You have to use the attack action which is a standard action.yeah you can really push the AoOs especially with a trip build, im playing a character who has greater trip and felling smash with a fortuitous weapon enhancement, I also have vicious stomp which results in:
Power attack -> free trip (felling smash) -> AoO (greater trip) -> second AoO (fortuitous) -> vicious stompSo for 1 attack in my full round I get 4 attacks and a control effect (prone) and I still have 2 other attacks that are now a +4 to hit since he is on the ground. Suffice it to say my GM hates me and now every second monster either flies or is untrippable (is that even a word?...whatever)
Whoa, you're right. I was doing it wrong this whole time (although most of the time I was using it with just 1 attack) but thanks for pointing that out to me. My DM still hates me though lol it's not really my 2 other attacks that pisses him off its the 4 attacks and the trip.