How is a Ghaele only CR 13?

[Mathius]

This guy has the spell casting of a 13 level cleric but gets a better HD and more skill points. The only thing it does not get is domains and channeling but I think its natural armor and SLA abilities more then make up for it.

I suppose you could argue that the wisdom is low for the level and that means saves from its spells are two but it can just buff itself into a melee beast and can run very easily to give itself time to buff up.

[Eltacolibre]

Ghaele are a good cr 13 but beside that...heh, not like you are fighting them. I don't bother reading much about good outsiders as monsters, there aren't many reasons for a regular party to fight good outsiders and they usually appear as aid/messengers etc...

[drbuzzard]

Well a level 13 cleric is only CR 12 in Pathfinder, so that might be the excuse.

[Zhayne]

1. Because the CR system is extremely inaccurate.
2. Because the idea that 'class level=CR' simply doesn't work, so comparing him to a level 13 cleric is questionable.
3. He only has 10 Hit Dice.

[Evilserran]

If it is similar to a level 13 cleric doesnt that explain it enough? The ghaele as a monster is not customized. It cannot take better armor, better weaponry. It does not have the wealth of a level 13 cleric. You already stated no domains, so no domain spells, no domain feats, it cannot channel which reduces another form of secondary effects based on channel type of "imaginary comparitive cleric". So the real question is-

Would you play a level 13 cleric with ONLY the options a ghaele has? I am pretty sure most persons would say no.

[Mathius]

If I had even the ability to change out the spell list and it was a game about combat and not RP I would total take this guy over 13th cleric. If I had full WBL i would pick this over a 14th level cleric. The at will CLW handles all out of combat healing. The at will dispel magic is hard to overlook.

[Eltacolibre]

Ghaele can change their spell list of course. This is just the standard loadout. Just like all dragons sorcerer spell list that you see can be switched around. They just put standard spell lists so dm who don't want to bother making a spell list from scratch can just play the monster.

[drbuzzard]

Why doesn't anyone note that the option is a Ghaele v.s a 14th level cleric not a 13th level cleric?

In pathfinder the CR of a class level human is level-1.

[Eltacolibre]

drbuzzard wrote:

Why doesn't anyone note that the option is a Ghaele v.s a 14th level cleric not a 13th level cleric?

In pathfinder the CR of a class level human is level-1.

-1 if the cleric doesn't have WBL(+1 CR). At least assuming they are comparing WBL cleric with a ghaele.

[Mathius]

Even if the cleric has full WBL the Ghaele has natural armor that is the equivalent of a full plate +3 and dex can count more if that gets buffed.
Due to its aura it has a cloak of resistance +4 and ring of protection +4. It also has +4 sword. SR 25 would take fair bit of cash to replicate and it also has smattering of immunities and resistances that would add some to the WBL pile. Constant see invis is very nice. At will greater invis plus form of light makes a great scout and he even has decent weapon to use in this form and a great fly speed.

I am not sure how low the armor penalty can get on full plate but it might be worth a -4 to hit for 10 points of AC. Putting armor on him is far better then using combat expertise and if I can I will dump dodge, for light armor prof and enchant some even with NPC wealth.

Glove of invulnerability and his once a days are all quite nice as well.

[Mathius]

I am sure that some one can optimize a 13th level cleric with full WBL that can trivially handle this beast but is there any 14th level cleric or a 13th one with WBL that has been published that can compete with this guy?

If we give the Ghaele full WBL and allow feat swapping can a even fully optimized single class cleric do better then this guy?

I suppose that being locked into combat expertise and improved trip and the loss of power attack makes him a less of melee threat how may published NPCs have subpar feats.

[Eltacolibre]

Not going to look through all the ap npc clerics but let see my npc codex says: Both cr 13 and 14 clerics profane general (cr 13) and sacred guardian (CR 14) could actually give him a run for his money. Sacred guardian can potential end the fight with one spell (banishment) and profane general just need to do 36 dmg then cast power word blind to blind the ghaele with no save.

Then again, the npc codex is really optimized for combat, so it's kinda different.

[Mathius]

I can understand not wanting to through all the published stuff to find those can beat him but look at these two does makes me think much of them. The power word blind it nice but only 40 percent chance of getting past SR. He can do it right away but greater invis plus stealth can let him hide for a few rounds. Invisibility purge helps here but has to be cast. As to banishment I would give it about a 15 percent chance of getting past SR and the save. Even if banished it can come back as soon as it can cast plane shift and teleport so maybe 2 rounds, 3 if it wants to be invis when it comes back. Plane shift is not on its list of spells but it can be the next day if this is long term thing.

The gnome is a slightly better caster but has worse HP, AC, CMB, fort, ref, has no SR, no melee potential, no easy way to attack touch AC, no escape mechanic or flight and while the luck domain is nice the SLAs of the Azata are better and holy aura trumps the protection domain completely.

As a DM I generally do not us SoDs since they ofter have less then 50 percent chance of doing anything but the prismatic spray from the Azata can hit much of the party and has good chance of something happening to someone.

I just do not buy that either one is better.

Note that they CR 12 and 13 respectively.

If I were playing a minis game or even a game PF that was simply combat I would choose the Azata every time. If you lock the spell list the SG looks better with both blade barrier and SM 7 on the list but so much I would pick it over the outsider.

[Daethor]

I don't think comparing the ghaele to a PC classed NPC is the correct comparison. The simple formula for NPCs (class level-1) doesn't seem to keep up with table 1-1 from my experience. Looking at other CR 13 monsters, the ghaele seems fine. Much lower hit points than most, but more versatility. Works for me.

[RJGrady]

Creatures that cast spells as an XYZ but have other useful capabilities are almost all XYZ level, or level +1.

Examples:

Drider (Sorcerer 6) CR 7
Dark naga (Sorcerer 7) CR 8

So, the ghaele being CR 13 is actually saying the ghaele is not very strong for its caster ability. I'm inclined to agree; even a moderately focused Cleric 13 with full PC wealth by level is going to hit very, very hard. Plus, their wealth is triple, so they could be considered a fairly strong CR 13.

Greater invisibility is pretty boss. The thing is, by that level, even the fighters and barbarians might be able to reliably see invisible, or ignore concealment in some way.

[Axial]

Moreover, how the hell do you pronounce it? Gale? Gah-leel?

[Zhayne]

From what I can determine from Googling, it's pronounced 'Gail'/'Gale'.

[RJGrady]

"Guile" might not be wrong.

[wraithstrike]

Mathius wrote:

If I had even the ability to change out the spell list and it was a game about combat and not RP I would total take this guy over 13th cleric. If I had full WBL i would pick this over a 14th level cleric. The at will CLW handles all out of combat healing. The at will dispel magic is hard to overlook.

If it had full WBL it would not be a CR 13 so as is, and assuming you can swap spells do you take the level 12 caster with full WBL or the ghaele?

[wraithstrike]

Mathius wrote:

SR 25 would take fair bit of cash to replicate and it also has smattering of immunities and resistances that would add some to the WBL pile. Constant see invis is very nice. At will greater invis plus form of light makes a great scout and he even has decent weapon to use in this form and a great fly speed.

SR is a trap

[wraithstrike]

With all of this aside monsters are generally made for one encounter so comparing them to other monsters is a better way to do it.

[Noir le Lotus]

Ghaeles are not clerics, they cast spells from the cleric spell list so :
- no domain
- no channel energy
- no spontaneous casting

Compared with a 13th level cleric, they are really less powerful !!

Moreover, if they want to fly, they must changeshape into light form and then lose the ability to cast spells.

They are really ok at CR 13.

[Mathius]

I often find these types of questions to educational. I have to remember that CR measures your ability to fight in one combat and not how good you are on the long haul. I think this guy is better long term then any published 13th level NPC cleric or 12th with full WBL but that is greatly diminished when you only expected to be on stage for a few rounds. I do recognize that an optimized cleric can be far more powerful then this guy but then a cleric made by me is not the same CR as one made by Ravingdork.

Thank you all.

[Tels]

Of note, the Ghaele Azata is a female.

We once got into a discussion about the Ghaele in a Monk thread awhile back, and, I have to say, the Ghaele is actually amongst the most powerful of the CR 13 creatures. I did several test runs of the Ghaele and found that it was fairly easily stomping even CR 16 threats.

Keep in mind, that while in the 'Light Form' she can only make use of it's SLA's and Light Rays for attacks, but she also becomes incorporeal and can fly with a speed of 150 ft. and perfect maneuverability.

In encounters where the opponent is tougher than the Ghaele in melee (or spellcasting) the Ghaele can turn incorporeal (50% miss chance, half damage from magical non-force attacks) and then shoot laser beams from up to 300 ft. away. She can also use Greater Invisibility and if the opponent has a method of seeing invisible creatures (such as using permanency on see invisibility) the Ghaele can just Dispel bomb the opponent, hopefully stripping away the opponents protections.

So, from a guerilla perspective, the Ghaele is pretty boss, especially since the Light Rays ignore all damage reduction.

On the melee side, the Ghaele has some fairly decent spells she can use to buff herself. Just from the standard spell list (which the Ghaele can change each day) she can cast Aid and Divine Power for +5 to hit and +4 to damage along with 1d8+23 temporary hit points (27 extra hp on average). Toss on Bear's Endurance for another 26 HP and she's sitting on ~189 HP right there.

If she knew she were going into a fight, she could bring Bull's Strength, Prayer, Blessing of Fervor, Righteous Might etc. and continue buffing herself.

Anytime the Ghaele gets injured too much, she can just assume her light form and sink into the ground and use her CLW SLA to heal herself to full, before coming back to the fight.

The biggest problem with the Ghaele, is that you, for the most part, can't stop her from leaving. The only real way of trapping a Ghaele, is with a Dimensional Lock/Anchor and a Resilient Sphere or similar effects. The best method of capturing her, is with a Force Cage, a 7th level Sorcerer/Wizard spell, however, it has to be the windowless cell version. Her light form functions as the Bralani's wind form except where noted (incorporeal, spells and SLA), and the Bralani's wind form functions like wind walk, which functions like the gaseous form spell. So if the 'cage' used on the Ghaele isn't air tight, she can simply slip out, force effect or not.

The Ghaele is just an all around powerful monster. Good spell casting, decent martial, excellent guerilla, nearly impossible to capture and just as difficult to hold down once you do. If a creature can't immediately kill the Ghaele in a round or two, it's likely the Ghaele will escape and/or make guerilla attacks on her opponent.