I'm actually trying to figure out how there's +90 to the fireball, even with all that...Caster Level 15. 2xlvl(15)+60+5D6 for a maximized/empowered fireball. Dazing is pretty killer on that too if your fighting foes with low reflex, though in a different way.True, but the example was Level 8.
EDIT: Nevermind. I figured it out. Saw that with the maximized metamagic, he just added the 8d6 into the flat bonus.
Except for the part where he's 8th level and can't cast an 9th level spell, a 7th level spell, or a 6th level spell, of course. (Intensified Maximized Empowered Fireball, Intensified Maximized Fireball with EmpowerRod, or Intensified Empowered Fireball with Maximize Rod). Which is somehow what he's aluding to doing.
And he's 8th level, he doesn't have the cash to buy a Rod of Metamagic for a level 4 Intensified Fireball (which I assume he's casting), nor does he have any way at level 8 to get his caster level to 15.
All he can cast is a Fireball and Maximize it with a Lesser Rod for 80 pts. Which is impressive, but won't kill all 8th level monsters.
==Aelryinth
Weird suggestion here:
No PC can take more than 5 levels in any Full caster class.
Basically, requires no extra rules, paperwork, and keeps options open.
I actually really like that - or something similar (7 levels perhaps?).
Do this and track ammunition. That'll balance a LOT of things out.
Weird suggestion here:
No PC can take more than 5 levels in any Full caster class.
Basically, requires no extra rules, paperwork, and keeps options open.
5 Levels Sorcerer -> 5(more, since it misses 3 levels?) levels Dragon Disciple -> 5 levels EK? Substituting other prestige classes as your build demands?
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5 Levels Sorcerer -> 5(more, since it misses 3 levels?) levels Dragon Disciple -> 5 levels EK? Substituting other prestige classes as your build demands?Weird suggestion here:
No PC can take more than 5 levels in any Full caster class.
Basically, requires no extra rules, paperwork, and keeps options open.
Prestige Classes are actually weaker than base classes, for the most part.
This is why they are often not used.
With this system, they become useful again, and force PCs to heavily invest, to gain access to those more powerful spells.
Also, you could just ban a few Prestige Classes, but that really isn't all that necessary.
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Here's a rarely used "house rule":
Actually make spellcasters abide by the rules that ARE laid down for them.
I was dead serious about this. If you applied that same amount of hand-waving to monks that wizards seem to get as a default, everyone would be talking about how monks are overpowered.
I think the problem isn't overpowered casters, but in encounter design that doesn't take casters into account.
The idea of "a group of plucky heroes versus one single dark warrior of terrible might and power" just doesn't work. You won't get the Lich King fight in D&D (probably because every form of action denial is useless on boss monsters in WoW, but still).
The secret is a seemingly endless stream of little guys that use aid another and teamwork feats. The caster has to lock these down with grease, sleet storm, black tentacles, stinking cloud, etc., or roast them with fireball, while the BBEG has activated a single-use, super-powerful item or inherent ability just for this battle (like snapping a magic fiendish cheetah tooth with his boot to gain a minute of haste and resist energy (caster's favorite type)).
Alternately or in conjunction, include a ticking clock that requires the caster spend slots on utility magic like gaseous form, water breathing, teleport, vision, scrying, etc., and have dire consequences result if they then rest for eight hours and don't immediately rush in.
Give Iron Will and feats with that as a prereq to big, dumb, fighty monsters/NPCs, and Great Fortitude and related feats to caster, archer, and sneaky monsters/NPCs. Give Improved Initiative to everything you can, and make liberal use of potions of anticipate peril. For important NPCs/monsters, especially ones that are reoccurring villains with crafty plans, have the potion be up even when there is no logical reason for it to be up, because your players won't notice and the seemingly preternatural foresight makes them all the more mysterious.
I'm actually trying to figure out how there's +90 to the fireball, even with all that...Caster Level 15. 2xlvl(15)+60+5D6 for a maximized/empowered fireball. Dazing is pretty killer on that too if your fighting foes with low reflex, though in a different way.True, but the example was Level 8.
EDIT: Nevermind. I figured it out. Saw that with the maximized metamagic, he just added the 8d6 into the flat bonus.
Except for the part where he's 8th level and can't cast an 9th level spell, a 7th level spell, or a 6th level spell, of course. (Intensified Maximized Empowered Fireball, Intensified Maximized Fireball with EmpowerRod, or Intensified Empowered Fireball with Maximize Rod). Which is somehow what he's aluding to doing.
And he's 8th level, he doesn't have the cash to buy a Rod of Metamagic for a level 4 Intensified Fireball (which I assume he's casting), nor does he have any way at level 8 to get his caster level to 15.
All he can cast is a Fireball and Maximize it with a Lesser Rod for 80 pts. Which is impressive, but won't kill all 8th level monsters.
==Aelryinth
Spell Focus, Spell Specialization, Empower Spell feats, Magical knack: Fireball means -1 to meta magic level.
Character level 8, casts 4th level spells, Fireball is effective caster level 10 thanks to Specialization that is 10D6, thanks to Magical Lineage the Empower is only +1 level.
That makes it a 10D6 fireball normal > empowered makes it a 4th level spell for 15D6, rod of lesser maximize can cover a fireball, even a metamagiced one so 10D6 of that is maximized, Orc and Draconic add 2 damage per die of damage so 10D6 = 60 + 5D6 rolled normally + 2 damage per die is 30 = 5D6 + 90.
So have them fight five Medium fire elementals.
I was dead serious about this. If you applied that same amount of hand-waving to monks that wizards seem to get as a default, everyone would be talking about how monks are overpowered.Here's a rarely used "house rule":
Actually make spellcasters abide by the rules that ARE laid down for them.
In other RPG systems I would know what you're talking about. Could you go into more detail?
I'm actually trying to figure out how there's +90 to the fireball, even with all that...Caster Level 15. 2xlvl(15)+60+5D6 for a maximized/empowered fireball. Dazing is pretty killer on that too if your fighting foes with low reflex, though in a different way.True, but the example was Level 8.
EDIT: Nevermind. I figured it out. Saw that with the maximized metamagic, he just added the 8d6 into the flat bonus.
Except for the part where he's 8th level and can't cast an 9th level spell, a 7th level spell, or a 6th level spell, of course. (Intensified Maximized Empowered Fireball, Intensified Maximized Fireball with EmpowerRod, or Intensified Empowered Fireball with Maximize Rod). Which is somehow what he's aluding to doing.
And he's 8th level, he doesn't have the cash to buy a Rod of Metamagic for a level 4 Intensified Fireball (which I assume he's casting), nor does he have any way at level 8 to get his caster level to 15.
All he can cast is a Fireball and Maximize it with a Lesser Rod for 80 pts. Which is impressive, but won't kill all 8th level monsters.
==Aelryinth
Spell Focus, Spell Specialization, Empower Spell feats, Magical knack: Fireball means -1 to meta magic level.
Character level 8, casts 4th level spells, Fireball is effective caster level 10 thanks to Specialization that is 10D6, thanks to Magical Lineage the Empower is only +1 level.
That makes it a 10D6 fireball normal > empowered makes it a 4th level spell for 15D6, rod of lesser maximize can cover a fireball, even a metamagiced one so 10D6 of that is maximized, Orc and Draconic add 2 damage per die of damage so 10D6 = 60 + 5D6 rolled normally + 2 damage per die is 30 = 5D6 + 90.
Actually a lesser rod of maximize won't work, you need a regular rod of maximize that's because recently the FAQ changed.
I'm actually trying to figure out how there's +90 to the fireball, even with all that...Caster Level 15. 2xlvl(15)+60+5D6 for a maximized/empowered fireball. Dazing is pretty killer on that too if your fighting foes with low reflex, though in a different way.True, but the example was Level 8.
EDIT: Nevermind. I figured it out. Saw that with the maximized metamagic, he just added the 8d6 into the flat bonus.
Except for the part where he's 8th level and can't cast an 9th level spell, a 7th level spell, or a 6th level spell, of course. (Intensified Maximized Empowered Fireball, Intensified Maximized Fireball with EmpowerRod, or Intensified Empowered Fireball with Maximize Rod). Which is somehow what he's aluding to doing.
And he's 8th level, he doesn't have the cash to buy a Rod of Metamagic for a level 4 Intensified Fireball (which I assume he's casting), nor does he have any way at level 8 to get his caster level to 15.
All he can cast is a Fireball and Maximize it with a Lesser Rod for 80 pts. Which is impressive, but won't kill all 8th level monsters.
==Aelryinth
Spell Focus, Spell Specialization, Empower Spell feats, Magical knack: Fireball means -1 to meta magic level.
Character level 8, casts 4th level spells, Fireball is effective caster level 10 thanks to Specialization that is 10D6, thanks to Magical Lineage the Empower is only +1 level.
That makes it a 10D6 fireball normal > empowered makes it a 4th level spell for 15D6, rod of lesser maximize can cover a fireball, even a metamagiced one so 10D6 of that is maximized, Orc and Draconic add 2 damage per die of damage so 10D6 = 60 + 5D6 rolled normally + 2 damage per die is 30 = 5D6 + 90.
Ah, you missed the errata.
No, the rod of lesser maximize cannot cover a fireball cast out of 4th level slot. You need a Rod of actual Maxizimize 4th-6th level spells to do that now, the rotters.
Soooo...you can use the Trait to empower, so now you're at 15d6 +30 damage, or 82.5...2.5 points more then just Lesser Maximizing a rote fireball with a Lesser Rod. Add Dazing to it for free, or something.
I'd also like to point out that very few people will actually play a full Crossblooded Sorc, because of the hit to Spells Known is so very severe. Usually they get one level for the bloodline benefits and go admixture wizard so they can change up element types, with a Varisian Tattoo to make up the caster levels for their blasties.
==Aelryinth
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I would also like to point out that:
Increased casting times
10 min/level spell recharge times
and easier saves against spells
were exactly what all spellcasters had in 1E, and nobody called them underpowered. You simply played them differently.
==Aelryinth
@Aelrynth
It's not an errata (at least technically), it's a change in the FAQ.
By the way it can be found [url=http://paizo.com/products/btpy88yj/faq?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Core-Rulebook#v5748eaic9r9w]here[url].
Get rid of Metamagic Rods and Pearls of Power. Also get rid of Dazing Spell, Rime Spell, Persistent Spell, and Spell Perfection.
If you do that you will remove some of the worst offending options spellcasters get.
I agree. Look, you have to be a good DM and a firm DM. Limit sources. Don't allow Blood Money (unless they find that spell in RotRL), the orc Bloodline, and what not. You can also make the crafting feats (other than scribe & brew) Quest items.
Core, RPG, UC. (OK, drop the Summoner, but)
Hand out the loot freely, but cut back on Ye Olde Magik Shoppe. Give fun and defensive items to the spellcasters, make them better healers, boosters, etc. Lesser artifacts to the non-spellcasters.
Listen to the devs here, and to the more conservative posters. Don't allow Scry & Fry (it doesn't work) or unlimited wishes thru whatever crazy thing your players may read here.
Play RAI, not strained corner case RAW.
Playing E6 for PF is like hammering the expertly made square peg that is PF into a round hole. It's kludgy.
Mind you, you can have a different campaign- how about a world where Full Spellcasters are so rare they are almost legendary?
That still leaves lot of magic. Magus, Bard, Paladin, Inquisitor, Alchemist, Ranger.
Or we tried another, starting @4th level, where you had to take NPC classes (not Adept) for the first three. You can still make a darn decent fighter with Warrior 3/Ftr 1, but Expert3/Wiz1 has a struggle.
Offensive Sorcerer (Dual blooded Orc/Draconic, fireball specialist with proper feats and a lesser maximize rod) Just throws an empowered fireball for 5D6 + 90 fireball and they all die or are so close to death they now do not matter.
Or you could just play it like RAI and limit that Bloodline to orcs from that region- where your campaign isnt, so no-one has that bloodline.
Or Core only.
Don't allow Scry & Fry (it doesn't work)
I am confused, are you saying that you should house rule not allowing them to work or that they don't work as the game is now?
Ye Olde Magic Shoppe is more important to martials than casters.
It depends on what the alternative is. My way of handling it is there are very few magic shops, and the loot that is found generally favors martials (because generally most loot does.) Arcane scrolls become very rare, and can't be picked up at the corner store.
The result is wizards have a more limited spell selection than Ye Olde Magic Shoppe, while martials still get their weapons and armor, generally.
Don't allow Scry & Fry (it doesn't work)I am confused, are you saying that you should house rule not allowing them to work or that they don't work as the game is now?
Scry & Fry doesn't work per RAI, you're not supposed to be actually able to get a unknown location from Scrying.
In other words, if you know the BBEG hangs out in one of these locations, and you have scouted them all, then yes, a successful Scry will tell you which one of the three he's at currently.
But it's not supposed to be able to tell you a previously unknown location.
Atarlost, you have to read my whole post "Hand out the loot freely, but cut back on Ye Olde Magik Shoppe. Give fun and defensive items to the spellcasters, make them better healers, boosters, etc. Lesser artifacts to the non-spellcasters." So, yes, you give that fighter his +3 falchion he needs.
But don't allow the MU to buy that Rod of Quicken whenever he has the cash.
I'd love to see how anyone can work out scry and fry tactics when your ceiling is 6th level.Don't allow Scry & Fry (it doesn't work)I am confused, are you saying that you should house rule not allowing them to work or that they don't work as the game is now?
Why does he bring up Scry and Fry all the time?
Teleport literally states “Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying.
Teleport Trap is the legit method of dealing with "Scry & Fry" tactics by redirecting them into a volcano. That'll stop those shenanigans quickly. Either it cancels out their teleport(If they save) or kills them.
I don't need Devs to fall over themselves over a perceived notion of GMs being unable to protect themselves from a flawed tactic and "RAIing" that Scry and Fry doesn't work.
Teleport literally states “Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic such as scrying.
Yesbut, from Dev comments that's not how they intended it to work, it's like I said.
Vastly more interesting than the tired and tiresome "I want this spell, this spell and this spell at 1st level."
Rogue "I want this skill, this skill and this skill..."
Fighter "I want this feat, this feat and this feat..."
The wizard has done all that- that's part of going up a level. That's how level based games work.
I played skill based games. meh.
"I do xxxx for no good reason, just so I can get a check in the skill..."
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Oh mighty Arch-Mage... he who can cast Three, count them, three third level spells per day. (He's talking E6, after all)Rogue "I want this skill, this skill and this skill..."
Fighter "I want this feat, this feat and this feat..."
The wizard has done all that- that's part of going up a level. That's how level based games work.
We're talking about ways to keep magic under better control, gentlemen. No one's saying either of you have to adopt the suggestions made. The fact you don't like them doesn't mean they don't make sense in context. They do.
I am looking for ways to keep the power level of Full Casters down...yes...but this is all for an E6/E8 campaign.
That is the idea of this thread. I am looking for ideas and advice. Level 4 and higher magics really are not useful in the discussion because they are not relevant.
But TBH I don't have an issue with your discussion, it might give me some ideas for what I am actually looking for.
Could always cap variables at Spell level Gained instead of Caster Level.
Fireball gets locked at 5d6 for a Wizard who gains 3rd level spells at 5th. (Sorcerer has it locked at 6d6 cause that's when he gets 3rd level spells.)
Want it to do more damage than that, you have to use Heightened Spell metamagic
Fireball heightened to a 4th level spell does 7d6
heightened to a 5th level spell does 9d6
Spont. caster ends up with a little more oomph due to the delay on gaininng new spell levels, but depending on your point of view on Sorcerers that might even make sense for you.
There is a tremendous number of monsters and villains and other assorted maladroits available to a GM to provide an engaging story for the players. Get away from the "30x30 room with monster and treasure" paradigm. Start mixing it up.
Your group's spellcaster can throw around a 5d6+90 fireball? Impressive! Reward him by letting him think he's a game-killer. Then,
- the treasure melted
- he burned an innocent hostage
- the villain in that dungeon has a huge fire elemental as a pet
- the party is in close quarters and he doesn't dare cast that in here
- the party dares not attract attention at night with all the wyverns flying around
- You're all standing ankle-deep in oil
- Roll perception: smell that methane gas? Still want to cast fireball?
Black Tentacles? Great spell! Too bad not everyone is out in the open and trying to move through that mess. They're up on the ledges! They're shooting down at us!
In other words, use their strengths as occasional weaknesses. Make sure there are consequences for their actions too. Use the terrain. check where you want the players to end up, and make sure it's not just a turkey shoot.
Look at the way encounters are structured in Pathfinder Adventure Paths. The straightforward "Monsters standing in the room" encounter is rare. There are almost always extenuating circumstances and tactical considerations.
And beware of the cherry-picking arguments: Just because someone on the forum can THINK of an exception to a situation, doesn't mean that every spellcaster in every circumstance has that particular thing or combination of things ready to handle a situation.
Stick to the CR level for each encounter. CR's are set up to drain the players' resources and then challenge them epic-ally. (so to speak). Make your world fun but challenging. Challenging, but fun.
....Are you berating me about what I am looking for?
A way to keep the power level of the Full Casters down in an E6/8 game.
You're already nerfing them with E6, then you want to hit them with the nerfbat again?!?
A full caster in E6 is a pitiful thing.
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....Are you berating me about what I am looking for?
A way to keep the power level of the Full Casters down in an E6/8 game.
You're already nerfing them with E6, then you want to hit them with the nerfbat again?!?
A full caster in E6 is a pitiful thing.
Thanks for your opinion.
The exit to this thread is easily found..thx
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There is a tremendous number of monsters and villains and other assorted maladroits available to a GM to provide an engaging story for the players. Get away from the "30x30 room with monster and treasure" paradigm. Start mixing it up.
Your group's spellcaster can throw around a 5d6+90 fireball? Impressive! Reward him by letting him think he's a game-killer. Then,
- the treasure melted
- he burned an innocent hostage
- the villain in that dungeon has a huge fire elemental as a pet
- the party is in close quarters and he doesn't dare cast that in here
- the party dares not attract attention at night with all the wyverns flying around
- You're all standing ankle-deep in oil
- Roll perception: smell that methane gas? Still want to cast fireball?Black Tentacles? Great spell! Too bad not everyone is out in the open and trying to move through that mess. They're up on the ledges! They're shooting down at us!
In other words, use their strengths as occasional weaknesses. Make sure there are consequences for their actions too. Use the terrain. check where you want the players to end up, and make sure it's not just a turkey shoot.
Look at the way encounters are structured in Pathfinder Adventure Paths. The straightforward "Monsters standing in the room" encounter is rare. There are almost always extenuating circumstances and tactical considerations.
And beware of the cherry-picking arguments: Just because someone on the forum can THINK of an exception to a situation, doesn't mean that every spellcaster in every circumstance has that particular thing or combination of things ready to handle a situation.
Stick to the CR level for each encounter. CR's are set up to drain the players' resources and then challenge them epic-ally. (so to speak). Make your world fun but challenging. Challenging, but fun.
This is not a debate in encounter design.
You are not the first to bring it up. People try and sway me from what I am thinking. All I want is to hear options.
But simply, how would you actually set up a game where you let your players know that the unbalanced Full Casters will be brought a bit more back in line.
What rules would you use? House Rules made?
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I am potentially starting a new campaign for my group.
I am thinking of E6/E8.
Any other ways to simply control to power level of magic in a standard fantasy setting?
Our group plays by the rules. Tends to keep casters in check.
Have you ANY personal experience with casters being out of control in pathfinder? Or are you just having 3.5 flashbacks?
EDIT: Our group finds that E20 works very well
Wanna equal the playing field try this
(He's talking E6, after all)If you are referring to the OP, he said "I am thinking of E6/E8.
Any other ways to simply control to power level of magic in a standard fantasy setting?"
Bolding mine.
So, playing E6/E8 is the simple way he knows, do you have any other suggestions.
Discussion of casters over 6th level is, therefore, open.
Most of the suggestions I have are of the following.
1. Be very very wary of custom magic, and especially custom magic items and custom spells. It's not a bad idea to not allow ANY customisation by players, until you've developed a high degree of system mastery.
2. Be STRICT when it comes to magic. If there are two ways to interpret a spell, use the interpretation that's worse for the caster.
3. Don't allow material you don't fully understand. If you don't know your player's characters almost as good as they do, you've missed something along the way.
4. Decide what kind of stew you're looking to cook. You have a lot of developed samples to be your guide. Forgotten Realms for high magic, Eberron for magic developed to the point of tech, Greyhawk for a streamlined low to high level flavor of magic. Hyborean, i.e. Conan.
You caught me. I deleted the above comment after I found a later post by the OP that said the opposite of what I had inferred. Sorry.
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I am potentially starting a new campaign for my group.
I am thinking of E6/E8.
Any other ways to simply control to power level of magic in a standard fantasy setting?
Our group plays by the rules. Tends to keep casters in check.
Have you ANY personal experience with casters being out of control in pathfinder? Or are you just having 3.5 flashbacks?
EDIT: Our group finds that E20 works very well
To call a spade a spade PF is not that much different than 3.5. Many of the same issues remain, and this is not the thread to list and debate them.
So you have no issues, nice. We generally don't either, but I do have a player (maybe 2) that like to push it...hard. So doing some research seeing how others like to maintain a balanced play field should not be a problem.
If your group changes nothing and are happy with it then I applaud you and your group, but it seems like you are just telling me I am trying to do it wrong. As such you are not helping.
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(He's talking E6, after all)If you are referring to the OP, he said "I am thinking of E6/E8.
Any other ways to simply control to power level of magic in a standard fantasy setting?"
Bolding mine.
So, playing E6/E8 is the simple way he knows, do you have any other suggestions.
Discussion of casters over 6th level is, therefore, open.
Most of the suggestions I have are of the following.
1. Be very very wary of custom magic, and especially custom magic items and custom spells. It's not a bad idea to not allow ANY customisation by players, until you've developed a high degree of system mastery.
2. Be STRICT when it comes to magic. If there are two ways to interpret a spell, use the interpretation that's worse for the caster.
3. Don't allow material you don't fully understand. If you don't know your player's characters almost as good as they do, you've missed something along the way.
4. Decide what kind of stew you're looking to cook. You have a lot of developed samples to be your guide. Forgotten Realms for high magic, Eberron for magic developed to the point of tech, Greyhawk for a streamlined low to high level flavor of magic. Hyborean, i.e. Conan.
Can't Find the Path mostly gets it....but I am leaning heavy to E6/E8. So talking about spells of levels 5+ is irrelevant.
Has anyone had much experience with UM Words of Power? I thought they tone down the power level of spells.
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You caught me. I deleted the above comment after I found a later post by the OP that said the opposite of what I had inferred. Sorry.
I think you were mostly on the right path...eh see what I did there?
E6/8 is 99% in my sights and set in stone, but I would be remiss if I didn't hear some further ideas.
For a homebrew setting, I would consider removing scrolls, wands, and staves, and bonus spells from high ability scores. The resource-management aspect for casters should (hopefully?) kick in at that point.
Also, increasing the casting times by one step, as previously mentioned, is a good solution to combat dominance on the part of casters. As anybody who's ever cast a 1 round spell will tell you, not being able to move more than 5 feet can really make you think twice about your options.
Also, longer casting times open up interesting roleplaying options, like quatrain-length incantations...!