Goblin Squad Member
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:) You know they are out there!
Ryan seems to fully expect that some (many?)people will run multiple accounts and I think he is very realistic in thinking that. Lots will probably have a dedicated Crafter/Trader account but I am sure multi-boxing(simultaneous playing your accounts) will happen too.
Anyway, the number 36 is a bit out there, but since commands as /follow are so important for PvE-boxers, I am wondering what Formations could actually mean for those people that like to multibox in PvP games.
Disclaimer: *box*, not *bot*!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Formations were discussed in (Could PFO Thrive with No Unsanctioned PvP). It's a monster of a thread but the link will get you to the relevant section. I suggested this:
Life is Feudal has shown off a formation system where the commander is the hub of a geometric shape displayed on the ground, this area moves and turns as the commander does. To get a formation bonus, the squad has to stay inside this area. Very simple system but I like the idea and think that it could be pretty much copied into PFO.
Different formations would mean different shapes and different formation buffs. Higher skill tiers of commander could mean larger area of the shape, new formation styles and more maximum squad members. Higher skill tiers of the squad members could mean greater effect of the buffs.
The proportion of the squad that keeps bobbing in and out of the formation could be monitored and this could affect the effect of the buffs and lead to dissolution of the formation if too many break out too often.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Formations were discussed in (Could PFO Thrive with No Unsanctioned PvP). It's a monster of a thread but the link will get you to the relevant section. I suggested this:
Life is Feudal has shown off a formation system where the commander is the hub of a geometric shape displayed on the ground, this area moves and turns as the commander does. To get a formation bonus, the squad has to stay inside this area. Very simple system but I like the idea and think that it could be pretty much copied into PFO.
Different formations would mean different shapes and different formation buffs. Higher skill tiers of commander could mean larger area of the shape, new formation styles and more maximum squad members. Higher skill tiers of the squad members could mean greater effect of the buffs.
The proportion of the squad that keeps bobbing in and out of the formation could be monitored and this could affect the effect of the buffs and lead to dissolution of the formation if too many break out too often.
Ah, yes. So the commander only works as an indicator for where the other players should be. That would make it very hard for someone to get his multiple accounts into the designated area, especially since you will be moving around a lot.
I guess a multi-boxer could only reliably handle the "Volunteer" formation with a default /follow command, where the entire squadron is one step behind the Commander...
By the looks of it, formations make multi-boxing even less efficient, when facing players that *can* hold formations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...some (many?)people will run multiple accounts...You won't even need multiple accounts; Ryan wants to allow multiple characters from a single account to play simultaneously.
Really? I do not think that is true. I do know about Destinies Twin, where you can have two characters on an account accumulate skillpoints at the same time as long as you pay a sub for that account, but I have not heard you can log in more characters from the same account at the same time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Really? I do not think that is true. I do know about Destinies Twin, where you can have two characters on an account accumulate skillpoints at the same time as long as you pay a sub for that account, but I have not heard you can log in more characters from the same account at the same time....some (many?)people will run multiple accounts...You won't even need multiple accounts; Ryan wants to allow multiple characters from a single account to play simultaneously.
It's true.
You will be able to log in more than one character on the same account. So you can run the client twice, or run the client on two computers logged into the same account. (This is commonly called "multiboxing").
One way to think of it is that each character is kind of its own single character account.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The practical limit on multiboxing is going to be the amount of attention you can spare. I doubt that anyone will have the ability to manage more than five characters at once in combat, and few people will be able to handle more than two, regardless of hardware.
From experience, I think it's fairly simple to manage one character per monitor (I have three) as long as they only need to take periodic or situational actions.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The practical limit on multiboxing is going to be the amount of attention you can spare. I doubt that anyone will have the ability to manage more than five characters at once in combat, and few people will be able to handle more than two, regardless of hardware.From experience, I think it's fairly simple to manage one character per monitor (I have three) as long as they only need to take periodic or situational actions.
I would clarify that to "periodic or situational decisions, calculations, or reactions. I hope that reactions and calculations need to be made about every two seconds in combat, identifying what conditions exist on the target and selecting the appropriate ability.
I suppose that with the proper setup, one could have multiple characters fight the same target, but that wouldn't generalize to being able to split up the group and attack two different targets at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... that wouldn't generalize to being able to split up the group and attack two different targets at all.
Quite right.
I remember two-boxing in EverQuest where I just had my Druid follow my Paladin around and occasionally toss a heal on him. I can fairly easily do the same thing in Vanguard where I have a Disciple and a Sorcerer follow my Paladin around and occasionally toss a heal or a big boom.
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Goblin Squad Member
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in this game since a sub only pays for training one character, requiring people to have multiple accounts to have more than one character logged in seems a bit much.
As to formations, its not that hard to do for a multi boxer to put what characters he wants where. A friend of mine in WoW had 5 shamans and he would put them in a star formation with one button and cast chain heal so that it looked like a glowing star. Movement while in formation, im not sure if that was possible. but stopping putting the people in formation, they can do that.
Also the more than five, there are several people in wow who have run, with success, 10 man multi box setups.
Remember one of the things about multi boxers is that they dont really pay attention to all the characters. I mean they do, but what they are relying on isnt each character doing the 100% best that character can do. They are relying on the fact that one person controls all of them, so that one person can do things like focus fire, heal, cleanse...when he wants them too. The result is a team that can be hard to beat, i mean how many times in PvP have you gone "attack THAT person, come on people if we kill that person we can win!"? a multi boxer doesnt have to do that. they pick a target and all 5 people attack it.
Overall, multi boxers havent majorly impacted any game iv played, bots and stuff is a different story. not only that but it will be interesting to see how people come up with multi boxing for this game. In general it takes specific kinds of classes/characters to really do well as a multi boxer so they all end up looking about the same.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Formations for multi-boxers would be complicated even further by single-target Crowd Control effects, such as slows, stuns, and the like. I'd be impressed by a multibox set-up which could keep formations; I'm not gonna call it impossible, because it isn't, but it would likely be much tougher than multi-boxing in another game. Of course, you could just run around formationless; though you wouldn't (likely) fight formations effectively, you could still kick around anything else that gets in your way. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Really? I do not think that is true. I do know about Destinies Twin, where you can have two characters on an account accumulate skillpoints at the same time as long as you pay a sub for that account, but I have not heard you can log in more characters from the same account at the same time....some (many?)people will run multiple accounts...You won't even need multiple accounts; Ryan wants to allow multiple characters from a single account to play simultaneously.It's true.
You will be able to log in more than one character on the same account. So you can run the client twice, or run the client on two computers logged into the same account. (This is commonly called "multiboxing").One way to think of it is that each character is kind of its own single character account.
Wow, did not know that, sorry about that Jazzlfraz and thanks for the clarification, Nihimon. I am religiously following Ryan and the other devs postings but apparently not religiously enough. :)
Leperkhaun, I can see now how this makes sense with the way you pay per Character for skillpoints.
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Goblin Squad Member
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They have said that formations will work a lot like guitar hero almost where things pop up and you need to respond to them. I think you could bot a formation by creating a program that recognizes what response it needs to make as each thing pops up.
However if they don't want people to be able to box a formation all they need to do is make it so that the response you need to give to any given order is slightly random. If some of your clients need to be pressing "Q" and some "E" and some "Z" and some "C" for instance, that can't be multi-boxed or 3/4ths of your clients will get it wrong.
That being said there are other insanely nasty things you could potentially do with multi-boxers in this game. I just sent a PM about one to Ryan because it's such a powerful tactic I don't want to lay it out publicly before I know it's been dealt with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am not completely convinced formations will be all-player characters. It may be that each player may be able to command a squad of NPCs. If I have trained to skill 6 in formation combat I might be able to wield a formation of six men-at-arms.
Be warned, I am doubtful of my own suggestion since GW is reluctant to even commit to rangerly pets, but still... there is much we don't yet know.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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In PvE WoW, you can N-box pretty easily once you set things up, because you never need to make a decision during play- you can set up each character's rotation in advance and trigger the macro once.
Some bosses require reactions, but they can be responded to with one macro per character, which can be triggered from one master command.
I would be interested if someone were able to 2-box in WoW instanced PvP and be competitive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I dont know about 2 box in wow pvp, but i know there were a good amount of 5 box teams for arena. My friend did his with shaman and did pretty good. he wasnt running for the top spots but he did better than a lot of folks.
He also did well in the BGs because he could focus fire so well.
well its not even 1 player more powerful than 1 other player. Sure I think you cannot deny that one person running 5 characters will clear content that 1 person running 1 character cannot.
However I dont think thats how you should look at it. you should look at it as what can 5 characters do when controlled by 1 person vs 5 people. A multi boxer has the advantage that all of his toons will do what he wants when he wants. The downside is that he does not have fine control of the characters. The result is that 5 people running 5 characters will be able to take out the multiboxer, as long as they work as a team. If they do not then they will get picked apart.
So if you want to take on a multi boxer with 5 characters you will need to go against them with an even team, which to me is reasonable.
If someone wants to pay for 5 subs and multi box let them, counter them with teamwork.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I dont know about 2 box in wow pvp, but i know there were a good amount of 5 box teams for arena. My friend did his with shaman and did pretty good. he wasnt running for the top spots but he did better than a lot of folks.
He also did well in the BGs because he could focus fire so well.
well its not even 1 player more powerful than 1 other player. Sure I think you cannot deny that one person running 5 characters will clear content that 1 person running 1 character cannot.
However I dont think thats how you should look at it. you should look at it as what can 5 characters do when controlled by 1 person vs 5 people. A multi boxer has the advantage that all of his toons will do what he wants when he wants. The downside is that he does not have fine control of the characters. The result is that 5 people running 5 characters will be able to take out the multiboxer, as long as they work as a team. If they do not then they will get picked apart.
So if you want to take on a multi boxer with 5 characters you will need to go against them with an even team, which to me is reasonable.
If someone wants to pay for 5 subs and multi box let them, counter them with teamwork.
I've recently upgraded to a much more powerful computer and will upgrade it a bit more before PFO's release if multi-boxing is a viable non-TOS violation tactic.
My issue is multi-boxing to me is not fun. It's a hassle. It slows down my connection and pushes my hardware to the limits. All that extra hardware and internet speed doesn't earn GW a dime either. However, winning is fun, so that's why I'll do it.
I would much rather do this. It's more open to people who don't have blazingly fast systems and connections, it's a hell of a lot more hassle, and on a certain level it sounds fun to have my own little squad characters.
If they don't do that, I think this game needs to go smart targeted or declare multi-boxing a TOS violation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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im not sure henchmen would be a good thing. that just begs me to create the max number of free alts, equipment with cheapish gear, and bam I now have a bunch of free dps at the cost of nothing. At least with a multi boxer there is skill to run the setup and to make it work right.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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This starts to sound a bit like a certain other game ...
- select target and lock it
- select "Circle" --> "20 yards" and start running circles around the target.
- Press F1 to start shooting
- Wait until it drops dead
- Next target
- Profit!
Perhaps with pet classes you can assign control of your pets to another player? So that one player can focus all the pets on one opponent?
(yes, this is possible in EVE Online with drones :) )
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Goblin Squad Member
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Because they can't really prevent it anyway. It will be done whether they like it or not. Unless they devote effort and money to creating detection systems that would make all other MMO dev teams green with envy.
I don't like it either but that's how it is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Because they can't really prevent it anyway. It will be done whether they like it or not. Unless they devote effort and money to creating detection systems that would make all other MMO dev teams green with envy.
I don't like it either but that's how it is.
It actually shouldn't be very hard to identify players who multi-box in combat. I think the main reason I don't anticipate that being a TOS violation is because it means more money for GW.
It will be damn near impossible to identify those multi-boxing crafters/gatherers at the same time the play their main, and I can almost guarantee that won't be a TOS violation.
Whatever level of multi-boxing they accept, I think they need to be upfront about and provide henchman that allow those of us not using a T3 connection to do it too. If the justification for multi-boxing is "you deserve it if you pay more" that also justifies letting you use your alts as henchmen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Andius, I'm not sure I agree with all of the details in your Henchmen proposal - not saying I don't, just saying I'm not sure - but I very much like the general idea of allowing us to automate certain behavior for our alts in a sanctioned way.