It just occurred to me, that on the 1st level summon monster list, we have:
Dire rat -- AC 14, 5 hp, one attack at +1 for 1d4 damage plus DC11 filth fever.
Dog -- AC 13, 6 hp, one attack at +2 for 1d4+1 damage.
Dolphin -- not much use out of water.
Eagle -- AC 14, 5 hp, 3 attacks at +3 for 1d4 damage, can fly.
Fire beetle -- AC 12, 4 hp, one attack at +1 for 1d4 damage, can fly.
Pony -- AC 11, 13 hp, two attacks at -3 for 1d3 damage.
Poisonous frog -- AC 13, 4 hp, one attack at +3 for 1 damage plus DC10 poison.
Viper -- AC 16, 3 hp, one attack at +5 for 1d2-2 damage plus DC9 poison.
Is it just me or is the eagle the clear choice for most situations?
I suppose the viper might be superior if you wanted to hide it somewhere where it could bite and poison someone, or the pony might be better if you were a halfling wizard needing a steed...
Maybe Gandalf designed the spell list. After all, it seemed he solved a fair deal of problems by summoning giant eagles.
The usual 1 round/lvl duration crosses off your pony reasoning, and similarly for any 'hide the viper' shenanigans. But for deniable support in a sewers, the rat. Dogs in any city, especially if you have it run away before the duration ends. Fire beetles emit light...
I've always thought the point of having a list was to let me think on my feet. Part of the game for me, really.
That said, yes, eagle wins the DPR olympics in the SM-I bracket.
Thornborn wrote: The usual 1 round/lvl duration crosses off your pony reasoning, and similarly for any 'hide the viper' shenanigans. Ah, good point.
Quote: But for deniable support in a sewers, the rat. Dogs in any city, especially if you have it run away before the duration ends. That's a good point too.
Quote: Fire beetles emit light... I suppose if you don't have access to the light cantrip...
Quote:
I've always thought the point of having a list was to let me think on my feet. Part of the game for me, really.
Yes, certainly it is.
I wasn't being entirely serious.
From my experience, eagles get there attack in, then die. That 5 hp just can't stand up to much. Its still nice to have a spell effect attacked then a character, but if you are looking for some battle field control effect, putting a pony in the way may last a little longer than an eagle.
Eagles also make handy flank buddies at higher levels, presuming the wizard has nothing else to do and the party has one or more rogues. the 3 attacks make for a greater chance at rolling a natural 20.
If there is room to fly then eagles win Summon Monster 1.
I'm pretty sure 1d3 eagles wins Summon Monster 2.
I just used sacred summons/summon good monster for sm2 and rolled 3 celestial eagles. The bad guys ignored them I guess because there were more intimidating looking guys around. But three rounds of three eagles providing flanking for 3 pcs for a mini boss fight was pretty great, I have to say.
It's just too bad you can't just keep getting 1d3 of a lower level. Because then, with Summon Monster IX, you could slap someone with 2,187 eagles.
Even assuming only 1 in 20 hits, that's still 109 successful attacks.
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How would they all get adjacent?
There were several enemies, and there were bad guys and pcs all over the place, so they were providing flanking for 3 pcs on 3 different enemies at one point.
I used eagles a surprising amount with my summoner in pfs.
Superior summoning and augment summoning is great 6 eagles per round, all smiting, all full attacking? with 18 attacks you have a great chance to hit, and you can easily set them up to flank.
Locally we called them "Freedom Eagles" because if you were ever in a bind, freedom eagles would save the day
The Crusader wrote: How would they all get adjacent? Great point!, Now instead of all those eagles, we just have one massive Eagle SWARM! which is immune to weapon damage....
oh god help us it's Birdemic!
Talcrion wrote: The Crusader wrote: How would they all get adjacent? Great point!, Now instead of all those eagles, we just have one massive Eagle SWARM! which is immune to weapon damage....
oh god help us it's Birdemic! Eagles aren't Fine or Diminutive. At best they'd be taking half damage from slashing and piercing, while still taking full damage from bludgeoning.
Still a scary sight though.
Hmm...my core book lists Riding Dog, not Dog. Significantly better animal, while I note that the PRD lists dog. Regardless, one possible caveat of the eagle is that they are finesse-based attackers. Their attack bonus thus does not go up from Augment Summoning.
Yea, they split the dog's (Dog and Riding Dog) up after the first (?) printing. Dog is a "small" size breed, think 30-50lb size... Think Bulldog.
Riding Dogs seem to be anything from a German Shepherd to a Bull Mastiff (Which is crazy when you think about the Size/Mass difference between them).
Shadowdweller wrote: Hmm...my core book lists Riding Dog, not Dog. Significantly better animal, while I note that the PRD lists dog. Regardless, one possible caveat of the eagle is that they are finesse-based attackers. Their attack bonus thus does not go up from Augment Summoning. Yeah, this was errataed a while back. When I played a Malconvoker, I had a writeup of all the various summoning spells with pros and cons of the various summons. This was before the riding dog errata, and the riding dog was clearly outperforming everything in the SM1 (and, for that matter, SM2 even before realizing that you got 1d3 of them) list. The dog is pretty bad though.
Curiously, I have a "don't use this in combat" note next to the Eagle. I don't remember why. :) (the Augment Summoning thing could be part of it though.)
Slaunyeh wrote: Shadowdweller wrote: Hmm...my core book lists Riding Dog, not Dog. Significantly better animal, while I note that the PRD lists dog. Regardless, one possible caveat of the eagle is that they are finesse-based attackers. Their attack bonus thus does not go up from Augment Summoning. Yeah, this was errataed a while back. When I played a Malconvoker, I had a writeup of all the various summoning spells with pros and cons of the various summons. This was before the riding dog errata, and the riding dog was clearly outperforming everything in the SM1 (and, for that matter, SM2 even before realizing that you got 1d3 of them) list. The dog is pretty bad though. That is unfortunate (although I have noted that the Riding Dog outperforms the Wolf on the SM2 list) because as the OP says, there really isn't otherwise any reason to summon things other than eagles. And I like viable alternate choices :( MAYBE the pony would be worthwhile if it were combat trained.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Eagle's run into the problem there are relatively few things they can actually attack having 0 reach and being small. Unless this too has been eratta'd and I missed it.
Maezer wrote: Eagle's run into the problem there are relatively few things they can actually attack having 0 reach and being small. Unless this too has been eratta'd and I missed it. They've got standard reach in -my- bestiary. EDIT: And in the prd as well.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Shadowdweller wrote: They've got standard reach in -my- bestiary. EDIT: And in the prd as well. Heh. So they did change it. I appologize, I just read the errata document and assumed nothing had changed. Instead they appear to have eliminated the space/reach the line entirely without mentioning it.
I suppose the alternatives are not COMPLETELY useless:
1) There's really nothing I can find that prohibits summoning a tiny creature into something's square. So... vipers and poison frogs can occasionally poison something if it rolls a natural 1 on the save. 50% of the time a viper can inflict not one but TWO points of damage as well if the summoner has Augment Summoning. Go viper! Of course, if you're using a 1st level spell slot to summon these, one might as well use Summon Minor Monster instead and get 1d3 of 'em.
2) Ponies can take a hit or two from a low level enemy. And distract griffons. Until they die.
3) Dolphins can flop around comically, possibly distracting foes for a round or two with laughter. Against foes actually in the water they're mostly useless since they deal bludgeoning damage and...enemies in the water take half damage from bludgeoning attacks. MAYBE they'd be able to help a drowning PC or something. If you could somehow talk to them they might be occasionally useful since they have blindsight for some reason.
3) Fire Beetles can light up dark places as they distract the enemy with scratches. The equivalent of a cantrip.
4) Dire Rats....in the hands of a villain (because the enemy is otherwise not expected to survive) can on rare occasion force the PCs to make a heal check against a low-level disease.
5) Dogs can...maybe find something by scent. Like vipers, ponies, dire rats, and...most of the other possible summons.
Stirges on the Summon Nature's ally list are much more amusing.
On summon monster I table they are simply the best choice allround not taking into account some corner cases.
The summon monster II table has some options that are likely superior to eagles, even 1d3 of them.
some general stuff:
- eagles are squishy, they will often die with one hit.
- Their smite is not like the paladins and works for one attack, they do not have a high AB.
- Augment summoning increases damage but otherwise has little effect on them, it doesnt increase AB either cutting into their DPR considerably.
- a little DR makes them useless quickly
- Small fliers are vulnerable to some effects and spells, like weather and gust of wind.
- Low HD creaturs are vulnerable to some stuff, like sleep, color spray and the like.
- multiple creatures might have a hard time to focus on one target.
ok, now summon monster II has some gems:
- Giant Ant, it is mre sturdy, it's bite attack should deal 1d6+3 dmg (1d6+6 dmg with augment), not that impressive though augment summoning will do much for it. It is however immune to mind-afecting effects which might be very useful in some cases (most notably fear effects)
- Small elementals are all kinds of awesome each has a fun ability to use, they are all immune to crits and sneaks and several conditions and effects. They are not smart but they have a language, meanign you can give them more exacting commands.
earth elementals can pack a decent punch with a good AB/damage and can bullrush for free, but it can also move through earth and stone.
air elementals, can fly very fast with perfect maneuverability and a creative player will find uses for it's whirlwind ability often.
fire elemental, put things to fire, a makeshift torch, burner of webs and melter of ice, energy damage has all kinds of uses. It also is good against creatures wit natural attacks, hitting or being hit it inflicts damage either way and might catch fire even. oh and it is also immune to fire.
water elemental, it put out fires(lights) and burning companions, it is otherwise useful in waterbased settings, even if tht is in large part because others are not.
Other elementals, might or might not be allowed by your GM but there are quite a few elementals that are core that by RAW can be summoned and have their own strenghts.
- Giant frog, 15 reach touch attack grapples !
- Giant spider, ranged web attacks are awesome ! it is immune to mind effects, it also has tremor sense 60' and a decent poison and smite attack.
- hyena/wolf, trip attacks !
- Lemure, it is sturdy with decent HP, DR 5, immunities (poison, fire, mind effects) and resistances (acid, cold), also It can see in darkness of any kind.
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