Witch Retraining


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

My VL from online asked me to ask on here for a ruling from paizo staff on this. It seems witches can't change their patron unless you retrain for arch type Dimensional Occultist which requires your patron to change to the dimensions patron. Then if you retrain out of that arch type you can take a new patron of choice.

Here is the link from other site discussion on this;

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qhud?Retraining-of-Witches#14

I've got a witch level 7 with 32pp. His patron currently is Endurance and I want to change it to patron of Plague. So is this possible this way because I can't find anything illegal about this. Also since I'm changing out after taking new arch type do I even need the book with the arch type just to do this(seems silly to need the book with the arch type if you wont be keeping it)? Also if there is a cheaper way to change patrons I'd like to know. So can james jacobs or some other paizo rep confirm this?

Dark Archive

Looking at Ultimate Campaign, I do not believe there is a way to retrain your patron, so even if you retrained into an archetype, when you lose that archetype you would still keep the Patron

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Todd Morgan wrote:
Looking at Ultimate Campaign, I do not believe there is a way to retrain your patron, so even if you retrained into an archetype, when you lose that archetype you would still keep the Patron

The patron in question would be one only available to that archetype that was removed. So to be a legal character, you would need to change the patron.

Silver Crusade

That's what I was saying so after you change to that arch type you have to change to the dimensions patron, then when you drop that arch type since you have to have that arch type to have the dimensions patron you get to pick a new one dont you?

Silver Crusade

Can a witch have a dimensions patron as their patron and not be a dimensional occultist?


poundpuppy30 wrote:
Also since I'm changing out after taking new arch type do I even need the book with the arch type just to do this(seems silly to need the book with the arch type if you wont be keeping it)? Also if there is a cheaper way to change patrons I'd like to know. So can james jacobs or some other paizo rep confirm this?

You need to have the appropriate additional resources to use all of the mechanics of your class regardless of how frequently you use it or how long you plan to have them. For the retraining to be legal you would need to have a copy of the Pathfinder Society Field Guide to retrain into the Dimensional Occultist archetype.

I can't find any mention in the Field Guide of the dimensional patron being limited to the Dimensional Occultist archetype. If it isn't limited to that archetype you wouldn't be able to swap it by retraining out of the archetype.


Dimensions is a valid patron for any witch. Just like clerics don't get to change the "channel positive or negative energy" choice they make at the start of their career, neither can a witch change patrons.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Well, if there isn't an Archetype that provides a patron only available to the archetype, then the OP's only option is to pay the 4,800 gp and 70 pp (which he doesn't have) to change to a Sorcerer and then back into a 7th level Witch.


From what i have seen the only way to change your patron, is going into the winter witch prestige class. Sadly that does not apply here... the ultimate campaign table, allows the changing of hexes, and nothing else.

Silver Crusade

Well no point in getting the book if I can't get plague patron at the end. Doesn't this mean you have to have the Dimensional Occultist arch type to have this patron?

Patron: A dimensional occultist witch does not have the same freedom of choice among her patrons as do other witches—she must select the Dimensions patron when she gains this archetype.

Is Dimension patron in that book only? Also can Dimension patron be taken without taking that arch type because if it can't then if you lose that arch type you lose the patron don't you?


The Dimensional Occultist requires the witch to have the dimensional patron.

There is no language that limits the dimensional patron to the dimensional occultist, so that means any witch could take the dimensional patron.

Silver Crusade

So is there any way you can think of for my witch to get the animate dead spell? My witch is level 7 with Endurance patron.

Silver Crusade

No one?


sadly no, its not on the witch spell list... do you have UMD?

Silver Crusade

Yeah but only 8 with it. The wand would be expensive but guess worth it.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Take Additional Traits feat for the +2 UMD and class skill trait plus the "use INT for UMD instead of CHA" trait.

Silver Crusade

whats the int umd instead of cha trait?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

poundpuppy30 wrote:
whats the int umd instead of cha trait?

Pragmatic Activator in UCamp

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