I am a DM for a campaign and we have a synthesist summoner in our group. I will not start reading everyone's class as i do trust them but for this class i have to enquire about it. I took notes about it so i can get answers.
1- he rolled his ability scores for his summoner and added them in. He says that he has the option of 3 different types of forms which come with ability scores. When he summons this form, does he get to fuse the summoner abilities with the forms he's able to choose from?
His eidolon comes with only one form -- he can choose the form he likes at the beginning of the campaign from the three choices, but once that's done, he's fixed. (There's an Evolutionist archetype for which this is not true, but it's not compatible with synthesist.)
When he's fused, the summoner's physical stats (Str, Con, Dex) replace his.
2- when in eidolon form (level 4), how many attacks does it get per round?
Depends on the eidolon. He gets his own character-based attacks, plus natural attacks if any from the eidolon. (There's a level-based maximum number of natural attacks.)
For example, if his eidolon has eight arms (cue the Hello, Kali! theme song), each with claws, that would be up to 8 additional natural attacks, but he'd only get 3 of the at level 1.
3- once in form, can the eidolon attack and the summoner cast a standard spell in the same time as long as it is not a summon monster spell?
Not for a synthesist. (For a regular summoner, yes.) His eidolon does not get its own actions.
4- he claims that he has an AC of 21. He said that both his summoner and eidolon fuses together. Can this be possible? If not, what is his real AC when in this eidolon form?
I'd need to see his build, but it sounds high to me. He does fuse with his eidolon -- that's basically the synthesist's schtick; it can't act independently. He does not simply add his AC to his eidolon's. He uses a mixture of both sets of modifiers, though. He uses the eidolon's armor and natural armor, the eidolon's Dex modifier, his own Dodge modifier if any, et cetera.
5- I calculated his summoner's HP which comes up to 34 and he says that his eidolon has 44 hp. He said that his summoner can transfer his HP to his eidolon. Is this possible?
The numbers sound high but possible; again, I'd need to see the character sheet to audit it. It's certainly possible that he can transfer hit points to his eidolon.
6- is it possible that his summoner and eidolon have a speed of 45?
Again, I'd need to see the build. A quadruped eidolon with an extra pair of legs would have speed 50, so it's not impossible.
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1 - he takes the form's physical stats ( ex. if he's humanoid base form eidolon he'll get Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13 iirc ), he uses those in place of his own. ( so if he has a con 16, while fused, he uses the con 13, his hit points will drop, and when he unfuses he'll gain hit points. ).
2 - depends on the form and evolutions taken. if he's bipedal, he can still cast spells from inside his fused form since the form has hands. if he's quadrupedal he can't cast while fused, but can get more natural attacks in. a biped could get claw/claw/bite, a quadruped could get more, limited by the eidolon table to 4 at 4th level .
3 - he's fused, the synthesist does not gain the economy of action a typical summoner gets. he either attacks, or casts spells. he's one person. he can't use his summon monster spell-like ability while fused.
4 - he loses his armor bonus from his base form. but takes the armor/natural armor of the fused eidolon. which at 4th level has at least a +4 bonus, on top of dexterity and mage armor being cast. if he takes the improved natural armor evolution this'll be +6 natura, +dex +4 armor, so 21 sounds right.
5 - he gets his HP , and the eidolon's hp are temporary hit points. so as a 4th level summoner with a 14 con: he'll likely have 8 + 5 + 5 + 5 , +4 favored class, +4x con = ~ 35 or so depending on hp rolls. unfused.
then his eidolon's hp count as temp hp when fused. which may adjust his hp. if his base con is 14, and his fused con is 13, then he starts out with 31 hp, but then gains the temp hp of the eidolon (calculated with 13 con ), it doesn't get max hp at first level . typically its just 5.5/hd. since its 3HD at 4th level, thats about 19 temp hit points.
6 - depends on the evolutions taken. if he's biped, he starts with a speed 30, quadruped starts with a 40. there could be an evolution that increases speed, but i haven't checked.
advice: really read the synthesist class. it has a HUGE number of pitfalls, and FAQs. its a very complicated and powerful archetype that will only get more powerful as he levels.
advice: really read the synthesist class. it has a HUGE number of pitfalls, and FAQs.
This. My GM won't allow summoners, not because they're overpowered (he likes high-powered games) but just because he doesn't want to have to get a Ph.D. in Pathfinderology to figure out what the hell my character is allowed to do.
As someone who is generally fond of the Summoner, I've had the urge to delve into Synthesist.
It is however a little complicated as others have said. Personally I find This to be very helpful.
This is a bit complicated, so we'll try to do this slowly.
Synthesis Summoner - This type of Summoner wears the Eidolon like armor. In this form, the summoner uses his own INT, WIS, and CHA while he uses the Eidolon's STR, DEX, and CON scores. The summoner's total HP is his normal HP + the Eidolon's HP as temporary hitpoints for the Summoner. The Summoner's STR, DEX, and CON are completely ignored when they are joined in one form.
The Summoner uses the Eidolon's armor, natural armor, and base attack bonuses. He is limited in attacks by the Eidolon's maximum attacks (see my answer to question 2). The Summoner does NOT gain any benefit from any armor he's wearing or natural armor bonus he has (he replaces his armor with the Eidolon's armor and natural armor).
The Summoner may transfer his hitpoints to the Eidolon when bonded. He also gets (at fourth level) +2 shield bonus to AC and +2 to all saves. See this page for all the ways a Synthesist is different.
Eidolon - The personal summoned buddy of a Summoner. When one makes a Summoner, they decide on the Eidolon. It takes 1 minute to summon the Eidolon, it is always the same Eidolon. The Eidolon does not heal naturally. If it is killed (dropped to zero HP for a Synthesis' Eidolon), it can be resummoned (1 minute ritual) with half hit points.
The Eidolon's form is decided by the Summoner at character creation. The creature must be one of three base forms: Biped, Quadruped, Serpentine. The Eidolon is improved by spending Evolution Points. If the Summoner spends 2 points on a Gore attack (giving it bull horns), it will always have bull horns and those 2 points will be gone.
Again, it is always the same Eidolon, called by name, that appears. This is not like summon monster. Once choices are made, he doesn't get to change his mind and get a different Eidolon.
So your questions:
1) He gets to pick the form ONCE for the Eidolon. Then it is set forever. That's the base form. From there he can upgrade the form with evolution points per these rules but the Eidolon does not change every time it is summoned.
2) An Eidolon gets as many attack as it has ways to attack up to a level-specific limit. Per the link in answer #1, a level four eidolon may have UP TO 4 attacks providing they have enough limbs or horns or whatever.
A biped Eidolon starts with 2 claws. He could add a Gore attack for a 3rd option and a bite for a fourth attack. He cannot buy any more attack evolutions (such as a tentacle) until he goes up in level enough to get an additional maximum attack (level 9 for five attacks). Note: Most powers let you replace the default claws with something better, like pincers or hooves. You don't get more attacks, but you get better ones.
3) No. The combined creature still only gets one set of actions. The Eidolon isn't a separate creature for a Synthesis Summoner. So the pair of them only get one move action and one standard action per round.
4) Depends on which form. Assuming a biped at fourth level, his AC should be 10 + 1 (dex bonus) + 2 (shield bonus) + 2 (armor bonus) + 2 natural armor (may be raised with natural armor evolutions if the summoner has bought any) = at least 17. There are evolutions to boost natural armor, but not much. If he has a shield, remember that at fourth level he got a +2 shield bonus to AC (via class ability), so the shield has to be higher than +2 to count.
The eidolon can also wear armor (or barding if quadruped), but the form comes with a base of +2 armor bonus which won't stack with armor. So if it is wearing a breastplate, the +5 armor bonus would only give the guy 3 more AC. Most of these numbers are level based (see the eidolon power chart I linked) to see how they grow.
A quadruped eidolon has a higher DEX, so the base AC would be 18. The serpentine form has even more DEX, thus a base of 19.
5) Yes, the total hitpoints is summoner's HP + eidolon's HP. The Summoner can sacrifice his hit points to heal the eidolon as a free action that can be done if the eidolon were to be killed by an attack (so if it has 10 hp left and you hit it for 15, the Summoner can take the 15 damage instead and the eidolon will continue to have 10 hp).
The eidolon's HP at level four should be 3d10 + 3 (CON modifier of +1). There are ways to up this via evolutions, but I would require the player to roll the new hit die every time it goes up just like you would when a player character gains a level.
6) Unlikely. There are evolutions that can increase speed. The base speed for a biped form is 30 feet, quadruped can move 40, and serpentine can move 20. For each additional pair of legs the eidolon gets, it gains +10 movement. So I can't see how it could get 45.
I am a DM for a campaign and we have a synthesist summoner in our group. I will not start reading everyone's class as i do trust them but for this class i have to enquire about it. I took notes about it so i can get answers.
1- he rolled his ability scores for his summoner and added them in. He says that he has the option of 3 different types of forms which come with ability scores. When he summons this form, does he get to fuse the summoner abilities with the forms he's able to choose from?
As stated he must choose one of the 3 base forms. After that the eidolons abilities advanced according to the eidolon chart, and its evolutions.
When he fuses, he replaces his physical stats (str, dex con) with the eidolons stats.
2- when in eidolon form (level 4), how many attacks does it get per round?
It depends is the answer. He can at level four have a maximum of 4 attacks with natural weapons. He cannot even take evolutions if they would give him more then 4. But he can supplement those with manufactured weapons if he has the additional limbs. So if he had 4 arms, 1 set of claws a bite and a tentacle. He could make 2 claw attacks, the bite, the tentacle, and 2 weapon attacks in each of the free hands for instance.
3- once in form, can the eidolon attack and the summoner cast a standard spell in the same time as long as it is not a summon monster spell?
No, in fused form they have a single set of actions. This is the trade off of the synthesist for the beefed up defense of putting the summoner inside the eidolon. He has to choose which actions to take.
4- he claims that he has an AC of 21. He said that both his summoner and eidolon fuses together. Can this be possible? If not, what is his real AC when in this eidolon form?
We need to know specifics for this. Its probably possible, but you really need to tell us his base form and evolutions. Keep in mind when fused his armor does not function, its just the eidolons defense (which cant wear armor) but his feats or permanent abilities do (if he has dodge, or a magic item like a ring of protection, that would count).
Is it possible? Sure:
Serpantine form, 16 starting dex (+3), starting natural armor +2
Improved natural armor evolution gives it another +2 natural.
Ability increase dex can raise it another +1.
at 4th level he has an additional natural armor bonus of +2
Thats +4 dex. +6 natural armor for a 20. If he has the dodge feat or a magic item (like a ring of protection or an amulet of natural armor) that could put it to 21. So its easily possible (though thats alot to invest into AC). But it depends on his evolutions.
5- I calculated his summoner's HP which comes up to 34 and he says that his eidolon has 44 hp. He said that his summoner can transfer his HP to his eidolon. Is this possible?
Normally yes life link lets the summoner expend his own hp to keep his eidolon from going to negative con, but thats not how it works as a synthesist.
As a synthesis, when he fuses, he gains the eidolons hp as temporary hit points. So at 4th level, thats 3hd or 3d10+x3con. If an injury would reduce that to 0 (and banish the fused form) the summoner can sacrifice his own hp to prevent it. In addition, the only way to recover those lost temporary hit points (since temp hp cant be healed by cure spells) is specifically the rejuvenate eidolon spells (addressed in the faq). Thats important to note, since that temp hp comes off first, and he cant sacrifice his hp until it would go to 0.
6- is it possible that his summoner and eidolon have a speed of 45?
Again this kind of depends. But its certainly possible.
the feet fleet gives +5 feet. The eidolon could have a base speed of 40ft (quadraped), or if it takes additional legs evolutions that boosts its base speed by 10ft per pair of legs.
Like others have said, the summoner is the most complicated class in the game, the synthesist is the best way to muck up the waters of how it works. You NEED to audit it his sheet, not because you dont trust him, but because its super easy to make a mistake, particularly since this is all new stuff (I assume since you dont seem to be familiar with it). Look over his sheet, talk to him about it, look up the rules yourself (or post the actual build here and we can help). But without the details its impossible to tell whats going on.
But the short answer, as a summoner theres almost nothing he cant do. High AC? Sure, lots of combat power? Sure, utility spells? Sure, good at skills? Sure. I guess the only thing he cant do is be a good blaster, but 5 claw attacks are better then a fireball anyday.
As a synthesist he's going to be super tough, have some good spells, and be able to dish out hurt. The only up side is he cant do them all at once. Even if you dont want to 'audit' his character sheet. You need to go over the character with him so you understand what its capable of, because its like having a druid and wizard melded into one character, with the potential to be a rogue too. Not to mention you have to deal with the social constraints of a dude walking around in a crazy monster suite (the eidolon appears as a translucent image around the summoner when fused).
At the very least look over the summoner AND synthesist rules so you are familiar with them.
To get more definite answers to your questions, could you please tell us the ability scores, feats, and evolutions of this synthesist summoner? Then we could pin down exactly all of the things that your player is doing wrong.
For example, the speed given for the last question seems unlikely. Base speed for the eidolon can be 20, 30, or 40 feet depending on how many legs the eidolon has. Each additional pair of legs taken as evolutions increases the speed by 10 feet. I am not sure how he gets a base speed that is not a multiple of 10 feet -- a 3rd party feat, maybe? Encumbrance could not account for it, as 45 feet is the adjusted speed of an encumbered creature with a base speed of 65 feet.
To get more definite answers to your questions, could you please tell us the ability scores, feats, and evolutions of this synthesist summoner? Then we could pin down exactly all of the things that your player is doing wrong.
For example, the speed given for the last question seems unlikely. Base speed for the eidolon can be 20, 30, or 40 feet depending on how many legs the eidolon has. Each additional pair of legs taken as evolutions increases the speed by 10 feet. I am not sure how he gets a base speed that is not a multiple of 10 feet -- a 3rd party feat, maybe? Encumbrance could not account for it, as 45 feet is the adjusted speed of an encumbered creature with a base speed of 65 feet.
With the fleet feat.
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he can't take pounce as a bipedal eidolon.
bite, taking the arms evolution, and pounce all sound like quadrupedal evolutions.
those are his base stats? or his fused stats?
when fused he can't change around the bonuses , it just gets str 16, dex 12, con 13, and those override his own physical stats.
so he might have 39 hp on his own, once he puts on the eidolon suit he drops to 31 hp and gains 19 temp hp. ( still about 50 altogether, and he can dip into his own hp before losing all of the temp hp's from the suit. )
he's got to choose biped or quadruped, he can't take both
so its either biped, and then spend his evolutions on improved natural armor, imroved claws, and extra limbs and claws ( so he gets to be biped and deal 4 claw attacks at 1d6 )
or quadruped, with bite, limbs (arms) and pounce ( so he's got 4 legs, an extra set of arms like a mini centaurish creature, and a bite. , and gets to take all of his attacks up to 4 with a pounce ).
Desperate Speed trait says it gains a +5 speed bonus to a movement type the creator doesn't possess already. so it couldn't use that for base land speed. the examples in the trait are swim speed or climb speed.
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If this player has been found to be cheating on several fronts, and he continues this when leveling, he should be denied the right to level up his pc on his own or outright have it taken away from him and replaced with a simple class of your own build. If he shows he has taken his pc design more seriously with the simpler character, you can give him another chance several levels later.
To be fair, the summoner class is very complex, and therefore error prone.
I'd simply audit the build (as we are doing here) and see if the errors repeat themselves.
First, i want to thank everyone for providing me the informations.
Here are the stats some asked for the level 4 summoner.
Str 10
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 15
Wis 13
Cha 20His eidolon:
Biped (claws, limbs arms and legs)Then its written: bite, limbs arms and pounce.
On his sheet, it is also written:
Improve natural armour, improve claw damage, and claws again.
Your guy has already made some mistakes. I wouldnt call it cheating, like others have said, its a difficult class, and if you havent played it before you can make mistakes.
1. he cant take pounce, only quadraped eidolons can take pounce.
2. He cannot take the second set of claws until 9th level, untill then his maximum amount of natural attacks is 4. He cannot take evolutions that would increase his total beyond this. In the order listed (claws starting, then bite, then claws) claws would put him over. He could drop the bite and just have 4 claws, but he has to change something.
3. His AC isnt as high as he thinks it is. His eidolons dex is 12. When fused his eidolon replaces his dex bonus with its dex. AND his armor no longer counts toward ac. His natural armor is 4, his dex is 13. Unbuffed (he could cast spells to raise his AC) its 15 not 21.
Edit: he just told me that he gains more speed with a trait called desperate speed
Given he's arleady made some mistakes, a trait that gives him +15 to his base speed seems really iffy. I would ask to see the text of this trait.
Its obvious that he lacks the system mastery to pull off a Syth Summoner without you having to audit his character every level. Its not his fault. Its a complicated class. If you aren't comfortable doing so then I would suggest asking him to roll a different class.
You could also suggest just using a normal Summoner. They dont meld with their Eidolon and are much easier to learn... and this will allow you both to become more familiar witht the class before you jump into Synth Summoner.
As a GM it is a good idea not to use more rules in your game than you can handle. Here is the text for the desperate speed trait.
"Your eidolon excels at a movement type you do not possess.
Benefit: Your eidolon receives a +5-foot enhancement bonus to one type of speed it has that you do not, such as a climb or swim speed. If your eidolon doesn't already possess such a mode of movement, you may apply this trait bonus later if it gains an evolution that grants it such a mode. Once this bonus is applied to a mode of movement, it can't be switched to another mode."
In short if the PC dosent have a ground speed he get 5 more in synt form.
Tell your player that both you and him will have grief if you keep up with a class that both of you need to read up on.
And sorry is i Sound rude. And happy new year.
And have the player read these posts so the player can understand how the class works and ask questions as well to clear up any misunderstandings and/or try to argue why his interpretation is right.