Graul Ogrekin - Place on Bottom of Location Deck ?


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


Bit confused by what is intended here.

Say you defeat the Ogrekin. Do you consider him defeated, put him on the bottom of the deck, then attempt to close the location as normal (then banish him along with all the other cards if you succeed in closing). Or is the idea that he is undefeated ?

Also does he go on Mammy Graul's stack if defeated but placed on the bottom of the location deck ?


You roll the 1d4. Then add to the encounter the rule that corresponds to the number you rolled.

In all cases other than 4, you can defeat the Graul Ogrekin. If you do so, put him by the scenario card to make Mammy more difficult then attempt to close the location.

If you rolled a 4, then he is undefeated after the encounter, regardless of what your combat check result was. But instead of shuffling him back into the location, put him on the bottom of the location deck. You don't get to attempt to close the location, and must go through all the other cards in the location to get to him again.


Can I ask where you are drawing this from ? It contradicts with some replies I have had here :

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/14384756#14384756


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Wait, I change my answer. (Still had time to delete the explanation I posted so I did, since it was wrong)

If a 4 is rolled and he is defeated, he still goes by the scenario card.
But if a 4 is rolled and he is undefeated instead of shuffling him back into the location, you place him on the bottom of the stack.

I failed to properly trust the designers and the golden rule.


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And here is the why for my answer:

The suggestion from boardgamegeek forum that if on a roll of 4 he is defeated he wouldn't still go by the scenario card doesn't comply with the golden rule (see rule book page 2)

Rulebook Page 2 wrote:

Rules: The Golden Rule

If a card and this rulebook are ever in conflict, the card should be considered correct. If cards conflict with one another, then Adventure Path cards overrule adventures, adventures overrule scenarios, scenarios overrule locations, locations overrule characters, and characters overrule other card types. Despite this hierarchy, if one card tells that you cannot do something and another card tells you that you can, comply with the card that tells you that you cannot.

So the 4 possibility doesn't say anything about him being undefeated (sorry I created that confusion) and cards do what they say and don't do what they don't say. So therefore option 4 only matters if he is undefeated.

Rulebook Page 22 wrote:

Cards Do What They Say. Read any card as it is encountered or played, and do whatever it says as soon as it makes sense to do so. Let the card tell you what to do, and don’t impose limitations that aren’t there...

Cards Don’t Do What They Don’t Say. Each card’s powers reference specific situations, and if you’re not in those situations, you can’t play it.

So the roll of 4 doesn't say he is undefeated, it just says that after the encounter he goes to the bottom of the deck. But the scenario says he goes by the scenario card. So...

Begin Situation
Valeros encounters the henchman Graul Ogrekin

Valeros rolls a 1d4 and the result is a 4.

Possibility A:
Valeros succeeds at his combat check to defeat the henchman.

The henchman says it wants to go to the bottom of the location deck, but the scenario card says, "Hey, get up here you doff!" So it goes by the scenario card.

Valeros attempts the check to close the location as normal.

Possibility B:
Valeros fails at his combat check to defeat the henchman.

The rulebook says "Shuffle that henchman back into the location deck." But the henchman says, "Uh uh, just put me on the bottom of the location deck." So it goes to the bottom of the location deck

Valeros cries silently knowing he has probably cost his team a number of turns due to his failure to defeat a monster, the thing he is supposed to be best at.

End Situation

Subtle note: Technically Possibility A might really be that the the henchman says "Put me on the bottom of the location deck." To which Valeros says, "Shut up, you're defeated. I've already started treating you as banished." And then the scenario card says (in Mammy Graul's voice of course) "Hey! You killed one of my kin!!! Don't dare put him back in that box! Put him up here! I'm coming for you and all your friends Valeros!!!" But the end result is the same.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

The golden rule always wins.


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If there was no Mammy Graul in this scenario, how would it work?

I think it would go something like this, but would be nice to check I've got it right!

Before the encounter: Roll d4 -> get a 4 -> Ogrekin is going to the bottom of the deck after the encounter

Encounter: Defeat Ogrekin -> He is considered "defeated" but his card trumps the general rule to banish cards so you put him on the bottom of the location deck.

Attempt to close the location -> If you succeed then the location deck (exc Villains) would be banished, including the Ogrekin

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

Yes.


We had this happen today actually...

Harsk rolled a 4 on the monster but he defeated him in combat. The monster's card said if defeated, we could attempt to close the location.

Harsk successfully closed the location so we put the monster under the scenario card (and NOT at the bottom of the deck).

I feel like we did that all correctly. Can someone post a quick confirmation note?

I'm going off Hawkmoon's comments that scenario and location card trump monster card.

Thanks,

Ben and lil' Abby


Cheez wrote:

We had this happen today actually...

Harsk rolled a 4 on the monster but he defeated him in combat. The monster's card said if defeated, we could attempt to close the location.

Harsk successfully closed the location so we put the monster under the scenario card (and NOT at the bottom of the deck).

I feel like we did that all correctly. Can someone post a quick confirmation note?

I'm going off Hawkmoon's comments that scenario and location card trump monster card.

Thanks,

Ben and lil' Abby

To me it seems that rolling a 4 allows you to avoid increasing Mammy Graul....sort of a reward if you can immediately close the location. If you fail to close the location, then the henchman is waiting for you, again....


pearlmike wrote:
Cheez wrote:

We had this happen today actually...

Harsk rolled a 4 on the monster but he defeated him in combat. The monster's card said if defeated, we could attempt to close the location.

Harsk successfully closed the location so we put the monster under the scenario card (and NOT at the bottom of the deck).

I feel like we did that all correctly. Can someone post a quick confirmation note?

I'm going off Hawkmoon's comments that scenario and location card trump monster card.

Thanks,

Ben and lil' Abby

To me it seems that rolling a 4 allows you to avoid increasing Mammy Graul....sort of a reward if you can immediately close the location. If you fail to close the location, then the henchman is waiting for you, again....

Nope. The Golden Rule is the clear decider of this issue. There are conflicting instructions, so the scenario card trumps the monster card.

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